[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

 

Dragon Boat Canada


IDBF


Canoe Kayak Canada

155 Guests, 0 Users

[sweet heat]

Hmmmm
Gorging came into our lane in Vernon last year in the final and T-boned us.

I am seeing a trend here

Don't want to bash Gorging at all as they are nice people, but there seems to be a common theme.

hey i remember that race... you guys complained and got time taken off...?? 

[NFW]

I know that i said that i will not post again regarding this issue, but i feel a need to clarify a few things.

No offense but there is no way in hell you would have beaten Gorging. Collision or no collision. Not trying to be nasty, but they, along with FCCRC, Kai and Hale are in a different league than the rest of the teams around here.

First off, No offense taken whatsoever.

Our teams are not in the same league yet they still attempted to take over our lane. They could have just paddled their best and beaten us anyways. so what gives?

had we raced our own race with no interference from Gorging, they could have lost for all we know. who knows? =P

As you see, I completely agree with you in terms of Gorging not being in the same league as ours.
My comment about my team beating Gorging was indeed made tongue in cheek, because i wrote the "who knows? =P"  to inject some humor into this issue. (albeit dry and subtle humor)

Secondly, the other collisions that have been mentioned in this thread all had different sterns. So there is no "trend" or "history" there. What happened at Alcan was a simple steering error. The boat went off course at the start. Henry mistook the lane markers and thought he was in his lane. When he realized he wasn't he corrected and they finished the race. Hardly trying to "take over" your lane.

     
If that was the case (of different steers), then i also agree there is no "trend". although it does seems to be a common reoccurence. As for Henry having a simple steering error, the last thing i'll say about that is that there's always a few diff side to a story.

      I know most of the Gorging paddlers quite well and they are some of the most sportsmanlike paddlers out there. I can guarantee you that they will not be an embarrassment to anyone in Malaysia. (certainly not Vancouver since they paddle out of Victoria.)

In no way shape or form that i am saying Gorging paddlers are unsportmanship-like. Nor did i say that the paddlers would embarrass Victoria (fixed =D) and Canadian dragonboaters in general. My comments was referring to the possible actions taken by the steersperson only, that could jeopardize Gorging.

      As for the comment about Gorging doing well because they get pulled along by other teams, I'm hoping it was made tongue in cheek. (so hard to tell in this medium) If it wasn't, I would say its pretty hard to get pulled along when you're the team leading the race....

Again, it was another comment made tongue in cheek, because if you see, I was replying the comments with same format. I even used the same icon.

[Secret Weapon]

It was not a steering error. If it was I don't believe we would have seen the the questionable hand gesture. This steersperson is very experienced and has raced venues worldwide and knows which markers are his. And yes it has been done before by this team and other high calibre teams.

[vicpaddler]

It was not a steering error.

      Then what was it? What possible gain could come from cutting off a team you are already ahead of and who had no realistic chance of catching you? Not to mention the fact that you have just made the course longer for yourself....

[Secret Weapon]

You don't always have to be behind to take advantage of a boats wash, just experienced in finding the wash current. This is my final .02 cents worth on this matter. Case closed.

From Wikipedia:
The international standard racing rules call for each boat to steer down the centre of her respective lane and to not ride the bow wave (wash ride) of a boat in an adjacent lane by coming along side close aboard to take advantage of the bow wave induced surface current. Wash riding is considered to be cheating under international competition regulations and is subject to sanction by on water referees or course umpires.

Here have fun with reading this link, pertains more to the lead or adjacent boat:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/135730/thread/1214501126/last-1215039540/Wash+Riding+-+effect+on+the+lead+boat

[Rob]

I can't help it...here's my 2 cents. 

The problem with Festival racing is it not fair.  If it is in Vancouver Kelowna, Victoria..and so on there are big issues if your your not racing just for fun and want to have your best placement. 

Some Issues are:
Not enough lane markers so boats can go into other lanes. No held starts. Tides. No real clear finish line. Uneven boats.

Some teams bend rules because they know they  can get away with it. Examples:  Running starts, starting over the start line, wash ridding, cutting off teams, sandbagging, substituting people not on there roster...and I sure there are things I can't think of.

That's why many of us prefer sport racing... the events brought to you by Dragon Boat Canada.  There are governed by the IDBF rules and are enforced. 

Everyone has IDS, and are checked.  Held starts. proper marked lanes even boats etc.  And the best thing...no life jackets.

My point is, if your team gets a chance, try racing sport events. 

I can't see festival racing getting much better.
               

[Wet spot]

Rob, i challenge the notion that most of the teams that race in our local venues aren't racing for both fun and best placement.

 I think your note misses the point that the races held in False Creek, Whistler, Vernon, Kelowna, Victoria, Nanaimo and anywhere else you care to mention take advantage of available facilities and provide these places with a race of their own.  They may be cruder in the sense that there are more variable conditions than on a tank course with a held start but  I also remind everyone that dragon boats are open water vehicles and the variablities on open water apply to all.  Sure, racing them on a defined flat-water course may be more precise  but I would be surprised if the actual outcome of a race, in terms of boat placement, would differ whether it was raced on a course or at Alcan on False Creek....it would simply be a different experience.

I also challenge the notion that these races are not fair.  At Alcan for example the course has been surveyed so while the start and finish line bouys float around a bit the start/finish officials know precisely where they are - as you know the  finish line is electronic with a camera and a clock.  The start, because it is not held may inject some variability but as long as teams respond to the start's commands and move forward, back and hold when told to do so it will be a fair race....starters know how to spot a team who is not holding ( ie trying to carry some of their momentum into their start) - more likely than not if a start is uneven it is because a boat failed to move promptly forward when asked to do so so they get left behind.  Those teams that practice their starts under non-held conditions and obey starter's command get a fair start! 

Are their variables on an IDBF course - yes...and are all lanes the same - no. If there is wind there is wind-drift and this will vary from lane to lane...also current if you are on a river or flowing reservoir.  Unless you are in a tank the water depth may vary lane to lane and this will affect perofrmance particularly if depths vary over and under 6 feet or so.  The other considerations, especially for outside edge lanes, is whether there is a shore or edge wave bouce to deal with, and or waves coming in from open water.

As you may know Water's Edge conducted the Nationals last year at Calgary under IDBF rules and certification and of course many of these same people are involved in racing events locally ranging from Alcan, Deep Cove, Vernon etc etc. and they bring much of the IDBF discipline to these events.  I also think that many of the officials, whether Water's Edge or not, have taken the IDBF certification course.

Admittedly, different boats wtihin a race can cause some unfairness, but more recently, as in IDBF races, a lot of effort has been placed in regional races to ensure the same kind and condition of boat is used in each race.  For the most part each race uses either a BUK or a Gem (or Millenium or w.h.y) and most of these, witihn a given race, are either new of are of simiilar condition.

Speaking of IDBF racing at Calgary, where the lanes were all bouyed, I saw wind and current variations between lanes, I saw boats flip over due to waves,  I saw experienced steerspeople get disoriented and end up crossing lanes on a diagonal thinking that they were still in their own lanes, and I saw boat still in their lanes  wash ride adjacent boats (they were given warnings) - I wondered at the time if racing there was really any better than Alcan.

By all means if you get an opportunity to race in an IDBF level racing sport event go for it - but it ain't the end-all and be-all of dragonboat racing.  (I too have raced in both).

[rtsdhvy]

Rob, i challenge the notion that most of the teams that race in our local venues aren't racing for both fun and best placement.

 I think your note misses the point that the races held in False Creek, Whistler, Vernon, Kelowna, Victoria, Nanaimo and anywhere else you care to mention take advantage of available facilities and provide these places with a race of their own.  They may be cruder in the sense that there are more variable conditions than on a tank course with a held start but  I also remind everyone that dragon boats are open water vehicles and the variablities on open water apply to all.  Sure, racing them on a defined flat-water course may be more precise  but I would be surprised if the actual outcome of a race, in terms of boat placement, would differ whether it was raced on a course or at Alcan on False Creek....it would simply be a different experience.

I also challenge the notion that these races are not fair.  At Alcan for example the course has been surveyed so while the start and finish line bouys float around a bit the start/finish officials know precisely where they are - as you know the  finish line is electronic with a camera and a clock.  The start, because it is not held may inject some variability but as long as teams respond to the start's commands and move forward, back and hold when told to do so it will be a fair race....starters know how to spot a team who is not holding ( ie trying to carry some of their momentum into their start) - more likely than not if a start is uneven it is because a boat failed to move promptly forward when asked to do so so they get left behind.  Those teams that practice their starts under non-held conditions and obey starter's command get a fair start! 

Are their variables on an IDBF course - yes...and are all lanes the same - no. If there is wind there is wind-drift and this will vary from lane to lane...also current if you are on a river or flowing reservoir.  Unless you are in a tank the water depth may vary lane to lane and this will affect perofrmance particularly if depths vary over and under 6 feet or so.  The other considerations, especially for outside edge lanes, is whether there is a shore or edge wave bouce to deal with, and or waves coming in from open water.

As you may know Water's Edge conducted the Nationals last year at Calgary under IDBF rules and certification and of course many of these same people are involved in racing events locally ranging from Alcan, Deep Cove, Vernon etc etc. and they bring much of the IDBF discipline to these events.  I also think that many of the officials, whether Water's Edge or not, have taken the IDBF certification course.

Admittedly, different boats wtihin a race can cause some unfairness, but more recently, as in IDBF races, a lot of effort has been placed in regional races to ensure the same kind and condition of boat is used in each race.  For the most part each race uses either a BUK or a Gem (or Millenium or w.h.y) and most of these, witihn a given race, are either new of are of simiilar condition.

Speaking of IDBF racing at Calgary, where the lanes were all bouyed, I saw wind and current variations between lanes, I saw boats flip over due to waves,  I saw experienced steerspeople get disoriented and end up crossing lanes on a diagonal thinking that they were still in their own lanes, and I saw boat still in their lanes  wash ride adjacent boats (they were given warnings) - I wondered at the time if racing there was really any better than Alcan.

By all means if you get an opportunity to race in an IDBF level racing sport event go for it - but it ain't the end-all and be-all of dragonboat racing.  (I too have raced in both).

I have seen races run on freshwater lakes that have been able to use small floating docks at the back of each individual lane as well as on either side of the start line. The floating docks at the rear of each lane were used so that a person on each dock could hold the rear of the boat until given the "release boat" order by the starter. The "mini-docks" on either side of the start line
had a small public address system speaker sitting on them so that all teams were able to hear the starting horn at almost the exact same time. This was the case in Sudbury,Ontario in July of 2005
on Ramsey Lake. That year the Sudbury Dragonboat Festival was also a qualifier to earn a berth
at the 2006 WCCC.
The point I'm making here is that it is physically possible to have held starts at RTADBF(see Taiwanese Dragonoboat Festival) from either end of False Creek, although putting "mini-docks"
at/or near the Cambie Bridge side of the course may not be allowed because False Creek is considered to be a "working harbour"(of sorts) and these "mini-docks" might be considered a marine hazard.

[rb]

Wet spot, I agree with you completely about the fairness of the various venues, I was going to write something similar about most festivals being pretty good with the right outcomes and even IDBF sanctioned events have some issues of unfairness due to lanes, wind etc.

As for the comment on the GD steersperson, I saw him in the beergarden and he said that their start is very powerful and he's lost balance a few times (I can't remember which boat he said was worse, the Gem or the Buk, but the footing in one he found more difficult to get used to).

Having steered for a competitive team I know that the power can make it more difficult to control than a Rec team. Steering is a thankless job, when you go straight nobody thanks you, when you don't everyone blames you.

[Rob]

Wet spot,

I am not putting down Water's Edge, I think they do a great job.

I am just pointing out that there's limitations when it comes to Festival races because of the venues:

Let's take Kelowna. The wind last year picked up and screwed up the placements.  The other problem has been unfair lanes, the outside ones tended to have better placements.  Also there had been problems with uneven boats.

Let's take Vancouver.  Tidal.  When we raced the other way there was a huge current in the outside lanes. Now if you have to deal with other currents when the water comes in and swirls in the other direction.  (Right DWW)   

Then there is the biggest problem I see with placement that most paddlers don't know.  When a fast team like False Creek races, other teams come close to wash ride.  It gives them a better placement.

The Bald Eagles have had better placement with wash ridding for a while, until the raced Masters of D'Zone, and Masters complained and the Eagles got a couple of seconds added. 

How many times did they and others not get caught affecting placement?

How many times have paddlers not get caught taking forward strokes before the horn on the start.  (I know a member of False Creek got caught in the False Creek Regatta).

I know that everyone at the festivals works hard.  I just am saying that the races are not fair.  I think they are fun, but the placement is not as important to me personally as having a good race.

I think sport racing is not always fair...but is trying  because of the stakes...of improving the sport to an Olympic level.

I think that the more teams that try that sort of racing, will bring up the level of the sport in Canada...and then it will be taken more seriously as a sport. 

I still enjoy festivals.  The beer Bong was great, thanks Calgary...but for the races, in my opinion, sport racing is where it's at.



 

[Swordfish]

This is a happy tune.

[Wet spot]

Rob, I wasn't defending Water's Edge - they didn't even run Alcan this year or Kelowna last year.

I think we are debating the merits of open-water venues v.s. flat-water racing in a controlled environment so there isn't much point in taking this issue further on this thread.

I think you are talking thru your hat on most of the issues you raise and you haven't supported anything you have said with any factual info... it may be appropriate to "bring up the level of the sport in Canada" but surprised you would sh*t all over west coast racing on the basis of such little knowledge and narrow perspective in order to do it.