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Dragon Boat Canada


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Canoe Kayak Canada

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[NFW]

Could anyone explain in greater details on how time penalties are assessed?

How are they given and by who? how many seconds usually? etc.

Thanks.

[BernMan]

Did your team get tagged with a penalty? I think your coach might be able to explain that for you. 

[LittleSchrodinger]

Check out those for greater details in Alcan's example; similar rules should apply in other festival.

http://dragonboatbc.ca/docs/rules_regs_faqs.pdf
http://dragonboatbc.ca/docs/2008_official_rules.doc

Usually they're given by the referees and officials, with penalties up to 30 seconds at times. (The most I've seen without being disqualification.) Given the rules explained, I don't think that our little clash with the Gorging Dragon was worth either side being penalized anyway since no actual collision was involved if that's what you're wondering about.

[NFW]

No, our team wasn't tagged with a penalty.
But i am curious as to why Gorging didnt get a time penalty though.
I've read both those links and the Word document has three sections (8.1.5, 9.1.2, and 9.15) that applies to that heat.

I would hardly consider the incident a little clash. I have gashes on my paddle because it was involuntarily introduced to 2-3 other paddles and my paddle also knows Gorging's steersperson's oar very well after that heat. Same sentiments goes for the paddlers in front of me and behind me.

Video evidence pretty much backed up what happened anyways. Gorging was repeatedly warned at least TEN times during a HALF A MINUTE span of the video to correct their course. and they did, AFTER much paddle banging. Towards the 7th or 8th loud warnings, its appears that the steersperson took his eyes off his course and looked towards the refs and flipped the bird. (i could be wrong)

I was miffed because of the near collision but hey things happens right? so i let it go...until the water ref came over and explained to our steersperson why Gorging came into our lane. He basically said that the steersperson for Gorging was experienced but their boat was just pushed into our lane by the waves or whatnot (there wasnt any waves in the video)

What kind of an excuse is that? and why was that action defended? seems a little biased to me.
and where was the penalty assessment?

the official rules states that if a 3rd warning has to be given for you to correct your boat, you will be given a "stop paddling" or DQ or at the very least a penalty.

any half decent steersperson knows how to turn a boat to its right side in the time that it took me to write this sentence. seriously.

Rant off.

[threesea]

Hmm...  Similar thing happened to us a few years back in Kelowna during a heat.  At that time, Gorging pulled over into our lane.  Their streering oar hit out front and the race was halted.  The ref gave our stears person a warning!  In the restart, they did it again.  But as the race was further along, it continued.  It was a spectacular, turn on a dime move to swing our front out of their way that prevented another collision.

Afterwards, the Gorging coach explained that as Kelowna does not have marked lanes, and they wanted our lane, so they took it.  Now why?  I have no idea.  It's not like we were in the same league as they were/are and it is not a move they could pull in a semi or final as they would never get a lead on the other boats to pull it off.

Go figure.

[Wet spot]

The others factors that ref's, the race committee officials, the race director and the protest committee consider, if an issue comes to them, is whether the offending team benefitted significantly from the perceived infraction, whether another team was negatively impacted or whether the outcome of the race was significantly altered, and whether after all is said and done, was the outcome fair to all.

We'd all like to see penalities for unsportsman-like behavior and callous rudeness, disregard and disrespect towards officials and competing teams however there is not much in the rules to support this...except in the most extreme of cases - and then penalty imposition is at the descretion of the race officals, not the racing community at large.

Race officials don't want to be overbearing and give penalities for penalty sake, in the absence of the above considerations. More often warnings are given and if a repeat offence occurs in a subsequent race then points may be assessed.

Hope this helps - from a long time coach, race official, racer etc.etc. etc.

[magicpaddler]

Hmmmm
Gorging came into our lane in Vernon last year in the final and T-boned us.

I am seeing a trend here

Don't want to bash Gorging at all as they are nice people, but there seems to be a common theme.

[Secret Weapon]

While certain steers people are known for these habits it is unfortunate that they sometimes impact the result of a team who had the unlucky situation of being slotted next to them. While some teams can stand up to the challenge and overcome this adversity other's tend to get rattled and end up having a lesser outcome than anticipated.

Not sure what the officials can do as they do try to call these teams off during the race but to no avail. Time penalties are issued and even a DQ if required but what about the team that they impacted? No time is awarded to them for having their race/focus disrupted.

Any valid suggestions on how to control 'wash riders' and make them adhere to the rules of the sport?

[Wet spot]

This issue is tricky because it is hard to make a distiction between a momentary steering error or lapse of control  and intentional crowding and/or actual wash riding (either  riding the bow wave or the trailing wash of the leading boat).  Theoretically, and in reality, you can be in your own lane but still crowding or wash-riding the boat in the lane next to you, if they are also close to the lane boundary.

Whether a boat is simply crowding another boat or wash-riding, either intentionally or not, there are 3 things the ref.'s look for: the first is whether the offending boat makes a correction when asked to; the 2nd is whether one boat gained or the other lost position; and whether or not the offence was intended to gain advantage (whether it did or not). 

The last point above is hard to prove so ref's have to be on the ball - a 2nd offence for a team is a dead give-away however and you will notice that Lao'yam(sp?) Eagles were DQ'ed in the Comp A Final for this very reason (appearing to gain advantage by moving into the slipstream (wash) of the boat beside them, gaining momentum and then slipping out and up beside the boat they rode wash on).

[NFW]

While certain steers people are known for these habits it is unfortunate that they sometimes impact the result of a team who had the unlucky situation of being slotted next to them. While some teams can stand up to the challenge and overcome this adversity other's tend to get rattled and end up having a lesser outcome than anticipated.

Not sure what the officials can do as they do try to call these teams off during the race but to no avail. Time penalties are issued and even a DQ if required but what about the team that they impacted? No time is awarded to them for having their race/focus disrupted.

Any valid suggestions on how to control 'wash riders' and make them adhere to the rules of the sport?

My team being relatively new to this steer's "habits" did get rattled a tad bit and we ended up not doing our normal rate right after the incident. so our race/focus was disrupted, and we ended up losing. our time was 2:06 to their 2:02.

had we raced our own race with no interference from Gorging, they could have lost for all we know. who knows? =P

so yes, i'm beginning to see a trend as well.
Our teams are not in the same league yet they still attempted to take over our lane. They could have just paddled their best and beaten us anyways. so what gives?

Video link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W40bZhJndk

(High quality available - click on link below the vid)
Pay attention from the 0:28 mark all the way to 0:57.
Tell me i'm wrong about him flipping the bird at the officials.

I have no intention to bash Gorging whatsoever, but maybe they should really reconsider the negative image (of unsportsmanship) that their steers will portray. If he keeps this up (which history seems to agree), the way he conducts himself in the club crew world championships in Malaysia will be an embarrasment to vancouver and canadian dragonboaters in general.

It would be a shame if the innocent paddlers of Gorging get penalized at Malaysia for behaviors such as this.

[LittleSchrodinger]

To be honest, that's a rather blurry video. :S We'll have to ask John for the original video if he still has it, but it's simply unfortunate that sometimes penalties simply are not handed out. I didn't pay much attention to the other paddlers behind me, but I'm certain that the front four seats on the right at least kept paddling while their left lost a few strokes. Do referees put that into account?

Anyway. I'd like to see how this turn out if anyone's going to deal with it. (Unfortunately, I doubt it if the history has any say.)

[Secret Weapon]

Maybe Henry didn't hear the boat marshall call him off the thirteen or so times. Good surge your crew had there for a bit.

[alcanranker]

It really is up to the race referee(s), starter, protest committee (if a protest is lodged) to decide if there was impediment or not.  In this case they did not feel there was one.

If a team believes they were wronged there is the ability to protest a race, you need to do that within "x" number of minutes of the race. There is a fee involved to make sure teams do not lodge protests for the sake of lodging a protest.  Did anyone lodge a complaint?  If not then there was no big concern there was a problem.

As for the incident being referred to, from my vantage point there was not a clear impediment to either team.  Based on what has been stated, by NFW, the steering oar of Gorging hit some paddles which means Gorging had to be ahead.  One team (NFW's) got rattled because of this...chalk it up to racing experience.  With experience what happens outside your boat will not affect you, I bet Gorging was not affected by the incident.

As for the comment about Laoyam, the incident was in the Open Championship and in that case there was definitely grounds for a penalty or DQ (which is what happened).

NFW, do you think you were affected in what division you ended up in?  If so then I can see why the concern but if you believe you ended up where you should have then as I said before, chalk it up to racing experience and learn from it.  Are you upset that your paddle has a battle scar on it?  Is it a new paddle?  Battle scars are great, it shows experience, you should see mine (might have been put on deliberately by myself though  .  Hopefully by the time you hang up this paddle it will have many memories attached to it (i.e. dents, etc).

If you are going to be in Victoria then hope for a rerace with Gorging but I am not sure they will be back from Penang (based on what I heard they won't be).  Then again there is always next year  .

If I was you, I would go give your steersperson a hug (in a non-sexual way of course) for doing a good job holding his/her own against them.  I have seen many a steersperson over correct to avoid it and loose it.  If that happened then there would be lots of things to say.

[LittleSchrodinger]

Thanks for the support, our surge was only because their left and well-hidden paddlers lost a few strokes during the clash. (I was on the right side and rubbed more than a few elbows with them, so it was a bit of a relief to have more room to paddle. ) IIRC they finished their last race among the under-two-minute dogfight that is Comp A, didn't they? If they're really ahead from the beginning of the clash, it might've not affected our ranking anyway judging by the finish times of the other teams.

I'll be sure to let our steerperson Andrew know about your compliment for him.

[miche]

click on "watch in high quality?" cause that made it significantly clearer...and yeah, i saw the potential 'flipping of the bird.' Regardless, you guys raced well