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Dragon Boat Canada


IDBF


Canoe Kayak Canada

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[rb]

Ladder rankings are used in other sports and it looks like this is the same principal. If you are ranked 12 and the person ranked 10 beats you then no change, but when you beat 10 then you are ranked 10 and they move to 11 and 11 moves to 12.

When a lower ranked person beats you then you only move down one spot. However if you beat a higher ranked team you take their spot even if they're quite a bit higher. If Granddragons beat Blu By U then Blu By U moves down one spot and Granddragons move up 6 spots.

I think all heats count, that's what Bluestreak's post says about the supersprints.

The finals are the most recent so that should be the last change. If team B beats team A three times but in the final team A beats team B then team A is ranked higher. That seems fair. That's kind of how people look at it anyways, and that's how ladders work in other sports. 

[BlueStreak]

Yes, all heats count. Using final rounds sounds like an interesting idea but that also means far less data for the ladder to work with. Also, remember that new teams to the ladder (that don't beat any other team already on the ladder) are added to the bottom of it. So a few unlucky teams might find themselves way down from where they would expect themselves to be.

Anyways, out of curiosity I ran just the finals only and got this result:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pjeZrHROikIhYa0viWn60Zw

For the most part, teams shift around a few spots up or down but there are a few teams that are in hugely different spots on the ladder. i.e. FCRCC Mixed Red at #78.

[CCR-MGR]

I will be the first to thank you for putting in all this effort into the Rankings.  That is alot of data that has to be collected in a timely manner.

But i was just thinking, would it be too much work on your part to segregate the different divisions ?  IE: juniors, womens and mixed teams.

[NFW]

Kudos BlueStreak on the Ladder Rankings!
I cant give you enough props for willing to sort through the race data and provide us this service on your free time.

For some reason, Casual Paddler's ranking/site hasnt been updated since last month...so your rankings came in opportune times

I like how there are so many teams in the rankings and also your logic of using the head-to-head system and using every heat data to refine the ranking down further.

With that said, had you only used the Final rounds to judge the rankings, my team would jump up from spot #27 to #9...
That's not too shabby after all...maybe u should reconsider using the final rounds only LOL

Clarification: So the three Eric Hamber Eternal Dragons teams in the rankings are going to be consolidated into one?

Cheers.

p.s: having different division rankings as suggested by CCR-MGR sounds good if feasible.

[BlueStreak]

Clarification: So the three Eric Hamber Eternal Dragons teams in the rankings are going to be consolidated into one?

The one main Eric hamber team's results will be merged with only the "W" team. I chose "W" because they were the higher ranking of the two split teams on the ladder. There will still be an "S" team on the ladder.

But i was just thinking, would it be too much work on your part to segregate the different divisions ?  IE: juniors, womens and mixed teams.

The ladder ranking database was designed to rank different divisions, but then there was intially some trouble with the data in one division affecting results in another. That has since been solved but in the interests of speed, I've decided to just use mixed division results for now.

-----

The team ladder rankings have been updated with the Billy Alley / Lotus DB regatta results. Thanks to pammywc for sending me them to me!

[Aquaman]

Great job on the rankings, Blue Streak, thanks.
Just out of curiosity, will out-of-town teams attending local events be included? 
For instance, Calgary Race Club and TopMade will be at Rio Tinto Alcan next weekend, so will we be added to the ladder?

[gunghaggis]

An example of one quirk is when a high division team has a bad race (or mid level team having a good race), resulting in a middle level division team taking a high position in the ladder.

With Saturday seeding heats usually positioning Comp A, Comp B, Rec A, Rec B, Nov A, Nov B in a 6 boat heat - then a collision or DNF race by the Comp A team and Comp B team could result in Rec A team being positioned higher, and dragging everybody else up behind them.

Would it make more sense that if team A beats team B, that team A then moves up 1/2 the distance the teams, instead of taking team B's rank?  This way ranks are earned as opposed to lost.  This would work closer to tennis rankings.  Just because you (the 12th seed) won the French Open knocking out #1 seed, doesn't mean you are now #1.  You proceed on a series of points.

Another quirk that NFW points out is their team moving from #27 to #9 if only Final Rounds were used.

Blue Streak also points out that the rankings are more refined with more races... so how about starting with last year's races as a base... then proceeding from there.  This would be similar to Tennis rankings, which are ongoing, not starting fresh each year.

I think the points system is better... similar to grand prix circuits for skiing etc.  All points are earned.  The more teams or individuals race, the more points they can gather.  But who is to say if FCRCC has a tougher or more plentiful race schedule in Vancouver than Wasabi Mixed in Portland or Gorging Dragons in Victoria?  But teams all have different agendas, some are aiming for national or international competitions, rather than recreational festivals.

But if the point is simply to rank teams' performance, then comparisons should really only be based on final heats.

[BlueStreak]

Just out of curiosity, will out-of-town teams attending local events be included? 
For instance, Calgary Race Club and TopMade will be at Rio Tinto Alcan next weekend, so will we be added to the ladder?

Yes, any team that races in a mixed heat will be included.

With Saturday seeding heats usually positioning Comp A, Comp B, Rec A, Rec B, Nov A, Nov B in a 6 boat heat - then a collision or DNF race by the Comp A team and Comp B team could result in Rec A team being positioned higher, and dragging everybody else up behind them.

DNF's are ignored in our ladder ranking system. The ranking will be calculated as if the affected team(s) did not race in that heat. This should work fine for the occasional team that has an indiscretion. But if you've got a situation where the top two seeded teams somehow take each other out, wouldn't that be cause for a re-race?

The ladder could work on final heats only, but as I've said it needs more data before the results start to look more realistic. So rather than waiting for more festivals/regattas to run their course, we could go backwards and use data from last year. That's perfectly valid, but I'm content to use the current year's results for now and seeing what happens as we progress forward.

Would it make more sense that if team A beats team B, that team A then moves up 1/2 the distance the teams, instead of taking team B's rank?  This way ranks are earned as opposed to lost.  This would work closer to tennis rankings.  Just because you (the 12th seed) won the French Open knocking out #1 seed, doesn't mean you are now #1.  You proceed on a series of points.

Is this kind of system used anywhere? I'd be interested to take a look at how it works.

[coach]

For dragon boating I like the ladder system and I like the fact that every heat counts. If you beat me on Saturday afternoon then you're ranked as being faster than me. That seems fair. I'm not going to say that it wasn't a final so please ignore the fact that you beat me. Race every race, they all count. If I'm really faster than you then I'll beat you next time, or I'll beat a team that beat you, and then I'll be ranked higher than you.

I didn't like the old points system, I never referred to it, it didn't mean much. I don't think a different point system like tennis would mean much either. What I want to see is a list of teams from fastest to slowest - the points systems don't tell you that, they tell you how many points the team has which is greatly influenced by the number of festivals a team is in.

IMO the ladder system should give the best overall list of all teams from fastest to slowest. Jericho outrigger paddlers use it and everyone views their ladder as a reliable list of fastest to slowest.

Of course no system is perfect and there will be some quirks and strange results when we're talking about hundreds of teams and hundreds of heats, but I think the logic is sound and I'm sure Bluestreak will continually tweak it to make it better (I hope he has some help, I'm sure it's a lot of work).

I also want to say Thanks for the ranks. I've been hoping for a list of teams from fastest to slowest for a long time and I think this is great.

Coach

[BernMan]

Ok after reading what the rest of you had to say I will say that it makes sense to include all rounds regardless if they are finals or semis or just seeding. It seems other sports do that and it seems to be more a true reflection of who's on top and so fort. So I too agree with the logic and criteria that this system uses this year.

Now on a personal note it occured to me that I never ever actually thanked BlueStreak publicly. I know I did it privately in the past in PM's but now I want to do it out in the open! So KUDOS BS! I do appreciate what you have done and you continue to do.

I too surely hope he has some help in doing it because doing it himself seems to me that it might take more time than one would care to put into for no compensation at all!

[DiggerPig]

Now that Bernman is finally in the mood to tell people publicly his feelings.  I wonder what else he will come out and tell people?   

[BernMan]

Now that Bernman is finally in the mood to tell people publicly his feelings.  I wonder what else he will come out and tell people?   

Ummmm good luck to all teams next weekend at the RTA Festival???    

[mandachan]

For dragon boating I like the ladder system and I like the fact that every heat counts. If you beat me on Saturday afternoon then you're ranked as being faster than me. That seems fair. I'm not going to say that it wasn't a final so please ignore the fact that you beat me. Race every race, they all count. If I'm really faster than you then I'll beat you next time, or I'll beat a team that beat you, and then I'll be ranked higher than you.

I agree. Teams who score high in the first 3 Alcan races and low in the last would be a bit ticked at this system, if that was the case.

I didn't like the old points system, I never referred to it, it didn't mean much. I don't think a different point system like tennis would mean much either. What I want to see is a list of teams from fastest to slowest - the points systems don't tell you that, they tell you how many points the team has which is greatly influenced by the number of festivals a team is in.

"slowest"? How about... accelatorily inhibited. hahaha.

IMO the ladder system should give the best overall list of all teams from fastest to slowest. Jericho outrigger paddlers use it and everyone views their ladder as a reliable list of fastest to slowest.

Overall I like the list too. It shows a comparison as to "what's in our league" as well as... well what's not.

Hurray we aren't last!

[rb]

I see the ladder rankings have been updated. A big jump for Starbucks (must be powered by frapaccino). Also Xtreme Reach and Blu By U are way up now that they raced a big festival.

[Aquaman]

This system is so much more fair than last year.
I hope some of the 1-15 teams are in Vernon this year so that we get an opportunity to "climb the ladder".
And, yes, the Fat Finger will be there on the beach, too...