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Dragon Boat Canada


IDBF


Canoe Kayak Canada

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[BernMan]

Maybe these werent the best boats to use? These 616's dont seem very safe. Those didnt look like huge waves. They have no front pointy part? Did the boat sink to the bottom? I don't feel very safe paddling in them. Are the boats certified? Is it just me but are dragon boats that unsafe they cant handle some waves? We use Milleniums, I have never heard of them EVER having a problem. I heard a Gemini flipped in Victoria some time ago. I feel like Im taking crazy pills, am I the only one who feels safety is important? Why are we risking lives? One death and this sport is over.

Whoooaaa! Easy there! Maybe you should change the pills you are taking. All boats, in my opinion, would have resulted in the same predicament. There were swells. I will assume you were there in Whiterock like I was. I did not actualy see the moments immediately before the boat sank but when you get swells the boat's front end kind of dives into the water. When that happens the water will get in overtop of the boat. It will weigh the boat down. Then people who are paddling will continue to paddle because its what we do. Don't stop until you cross the finish line. Anyway then there are some people who will stop paddling and scream because they are getting more wet than usual. It doesn't matter really on who did what or when. There were large swells and the boat will go into a rocking motion from front to back or back to front and eventually dive head first into the last swell when the next one comes from behind. So boat designs are not what caused the unfortunate incident. I am not going to comment on anything like equal weight distribution on the boat ie: bow or stern heavy? But that could also be things that can contribute to crews causing their boats to sink or roll over.

[Colossus]

from the wording of his post, it sounds like he wasn't there at all....  agreed that ANY design of dragonboat could have had the same thing happen.  the water conditions were far from ideal.  when turning around the point to line up at the starting line, if you were hit by some of the waves that were coming in at that time and people were leaning out too much, i have no doubt that the boat would have rolled onto its side. 
the team i was paddling with was staging right after the race where the boat went down, and even while suspended on the tops of waves, the wave tips were still coming up higher than the side of the boat.  we had people bailing pretty much non-stop and there was STILL about 4" of water in the bottom when we docked.  I wouldn't expect people to bail during the race, and that could have been another part of why they went under. 

*edit*  btw, the boats weren't 6-16s.

[paddling is life]

 SHE actually, all I am saying is there is nothing up front. It has no regular front like other boats. Perhaps some of these boats need to address safety and this may have been a good push to address the issue. Any lay person could easily see that one missplaced wave could go over the front. All the other points you provide are secondary, once the front dives instead of ride the wave its game over. A 616 cannot ride the wave it will dive. With that many people on board isn't safety the paramout thought? Maybe 616's should be flat water boats only. All I am saying is safety has gone to the wayside in the sport and seemingly in the manufactures eyes as well. They are mostly build by backyard entrepreneurs hoping it is right, I dont like being asked to risk my life on a GUESS. I heard the Milleniums were built by the same people who build Zodiac boats. Why aren't they used more? If they were not 616s what were they? They sure looked like it. The problem will also arise once the boat is beneath the water it should have sufficient floatation to support the team until rescue, the boat dissapeared. My point, wich you boys are missing, is that there are no safety guidlines set out by a governing body, and don't hand me the IDBF line, they have no regulation on safety only on length and width and such.
 In my opinion the boats were a problem, you are entitled to your opinion this is mine. So thanks I will stick to my medication, you may go on blissfully unaware of the danger beneath you. ENJOY!

[StraightLine]

*edit*  btw, the boats weren't 6-16s.

No, the boats were D2s which, from the information I have, are essentially 6-16s that have been gutted and refitted into their current configuration.

As Colossus and others have said, this could have happened with any boat type.  A Millenium boat may have been slightly more bouyant in this situation because the center beam has a foam core, but it still would have swamped in these circumstances and may have even capsized because the water would have been prevented from equalizing between the two sides of the boat by the solid center beam.

The boat at White Rock didn't sink to the bottom.  The bouyancy chambers under the drummer and steering station prevented that, but there isn't enough space in a dragon boat to build in enough bouyancy to counteract the weight of 22 paddlers and however many litres of water it takes to fill one.

all I am saying is there is nothing up front. It has no regular front like other boats. Perhaps some of these boats need to address safety and this may have been a good push to address the issue. Any lay person could easily see that one missplaced wave could go over the front.

Perhaps you should take a good look at the 6-16 / D2 boat the next time you are near one.  There is a solid bulkhead about 2 feet back from the bow of the boat with the same design at the stern.  The problem wasn't water coming over the bow, the wave that swamped the boat came over the side.

I heard the Milleniums were built by the same people who build Zodiac boats. Why aren't they used more?

Neither the 6-16 boats nor the Millenium boats meet IDBF standards, so it's likely that you will be seeing more of the Geminis, BuKs, and other standard boats on the water rather than any increase in the use of Millenium boats.

As for the Millenium boats - I've watched steerspeople get tossed out of the boats in the Nanaimo races.  I'm not a big fan of them as I cannot properly brace myself at the steersperson's position with that solid center beam.

All I am saying is safety has gone to the wayside in the sport and seemingly in the manufactures eyes as well.
<snip>
 My point, wich you boys are missing, is that there are no safety guidlines set out by a governing body, and don't hand me the IDBF line, they have no regulation on safety only on length and width and such.
 In my opinion the boats were a problem, you are entitled to your opinion this is mine. So thanks I will stick to my medication, you may go on blissfully unaware of the danger beneath you. ENJOY!

Safety is paramount.  That is why PFDs are required to be worn when you are racing.  That's why there were two race marshal boats on the water.  That's why the organizers called the races.  Some times things happen that are outside of your control. 

The organizers have a responsibility to ensure they provide a safe event.  The teams have a responsibility to ensure they participate in a safe manner.  We all have our role to play in making dragon boatins a safe sport.

StraightLine.

[BernMan]

Well said Straightline!! Kudos!!

[The Legend Killer]

I agree that whatever dragonboat you put in the situation we had on Saturday, the result would have been the same.  Dragonboats, be it 616, Gemini, D2 (what is used in White Rock), Millenium, BUKs - they aren't meant to plough through rough water or high chop.  They are racing boats.  It's like trying to have an indy car race in an off-road rally track.  As a steersperson, I for one would not like to steer a Millenium through those waters due to the lack of space in the back for foot placement.  Gemini's are too streamlined and aren't wide enough at the bottom.  616s and the D2s are probably best if given a choice.

Had we better conditions, and some sun, it would have been a great day.  Races were fairly on time, and everyone was in good spirits.  Props to Water's Edge for that.  I think the organizers should re-think the venue, though, as the conditions we had on Saturday seem to be the norm at this time of year in White Rock.

[Colossus]

thanks for the clarification on the differences straightline, i knew they were similar, just didnt' know exacts, and very well put with the rest.

[nakedpaddler]

This is funny...no one hear of the "Titanic" - not  supposed to sink my butt...

It's a water sport what do you expect.  How often does this happen?  Safety, hmmm did you not know you were getting in a boat?  sign the waiver, put on your pfd (make sure it is zipped and tight) and get out there or if you think that it is unsafe then just don't do it. 

Can't swim?  how many people on your boat can't swim?  Do you know who they are?  This is one thing I find quite amuzing....you should be aware of the people who 'can't swim' or 'sink'......

It is very unlikely that the boat is going to sink - but considering the circumstances that was a totally different story. 

The racing was called off for good reason, now I am just wondering if that ladies boat didn't get swamped if the racing would have continued?  oh right, the tide was going out so fast that there wouldn't have been any water to paddle in.  (this side of the breakwater....)

Kudos to everyone that was out on the water on Saturday, it is too bad about Mother Nature.

[paddling is life]

Let me slkow it down so you can follow.
-There is no safety regulating body and the boats are built in peoples back yards.
-You admitted that Milenniums have better floatation, thanks for the amunition
-You also admitted they are reconfigured 616s
-Like turning a Hyundai into an indy car right?
-Then how are they safe?
- The problem arises once the boat is under. The reconfigured 616s have worn out floatation under the seats and d2s have a little bit under the bow and the stern. These are the mainstay 'race' boats in the majority of the races.
Thanks for your input on steering however we weren't discussing it?  
All I was trying to put out there was the need for increased safety measures with regard to the hulls. But thank you for the lessons on all the different boats. It just renforces the point that they are all different with little regard to safety. I for one would rather have the millenniums boat style bow to ride the waves so water over the fron does not compound water from the sides.
I no longer wish to debate the topic. Thanks fellas. You make this site so enjoyable to bring up points, I know someone agrees with me out there.


Thanks 'naked paddler, not addressing safety in a water sport is great idea. Shall I forward the coroners reports?
Great attitude, next time please dont wear your jacket, dont zip it up and please be drunk while doing all this.

[Colossus]

oh dear, shoot me now...  i've resorted to pressing the "boo". 

ms. paddling is life, you need to look outside your very narrow point of view for just a few seconds to realize what people are saying here. 

[Secret Weapon]

I'm with you...  boo..boo...boo

[DBWTim]

Oh well... at least there's activity on the forums again...

Paddling, even though you do not wish to debate this further I just want to point out some counter-points. In terms of a safety regulating body for dragonboat, I think it would really help if it's actually recognized as a sport first. Currently there are still arguments as to where this activity fits into... is it a canoe sport? Or is it its own sport? There are more than enough bar room brawls (slight exaggeration) about who should be regulating the activity, the International Canoe Federation or International Dragon Boat Federation...

I do agree that the Millennium boats are better floaters but, like what Straightline said, considering how the left and right sides are sealed from each other, I don't think they would have faired any better if they were used at White Rock. I think they would've actually been worse as they would be off balance making it hard to maneuver and most likely start leaning as the two sides filled with water unevenly. Worst case would be that it takes a wave on the side and flip over rather than just swamp. Hypothetically… if Millenniums were used at the event and they did go over, we would have a buoyant upside-down heavy plastic boat being tossed around by the waves in a crowd of shocked, maybe even panicking paddlers… At least with the swamping, the boat wasn’t really at head-level with anyone on that women’s team.

I don’t understand how you can just brush off the issue of steering in a debate about safety. Safety-wise and speaking from experience, I would be more concerned about an out of control boat than of a sinking one.

Also, if we're calling things out, it should be noted that the Millennium’s hull design was actually stolen off of the 6-16s, so if it wasn’t for these boats being built in someone’s backyard there would be no Millenniums.

Paddling, I applaud you for your concern in safety; however, I do not see the fault in the boats for this event. Plain and simple, the conditions were not “ideal� for the event and any of the boats/hull designs would have seen the same fate… Some probably would fair better but the choice of the D2 was probably the best choice. A Gemini/BuK probably would’ve lasted two races. Based on the teams that were part of the event, I would say that, other than a handful of teams, most of them did not know what they were getting themselves into. Most teams practice on rather flat water and never experienced anything like what White Rock offers. If they are going to keep the event at the same venue, it should be advertised as that. It is definitely a race geared towards a more experienced race field.

Thanks 'naked paddler, not addressing safety in a water sport is great idea. Shall I forward the coroners reports?
Great attitude, next time please dont wear your jacket, dont zip it up and please be drunk while doing all this.

Now now… that’s not very nice…
 

[Steamrollers Moaner]

You know what...  I agree with Paddling is Life.  Let's make this sport safe. 

Let's all paddle in 50-foot barges. 

[The Legend Killer]

You know what...  I agree with Paddling is Life.  Let's make this sport save. 

Let's all paddle in 50-foot barges. 

LOL...I'll steer.

[Colossus]

Thanks 'naked paddler, not addressing safety in a water sport is great idea. Shall I forward the coroners reports?

no, i think you should keep them if there are any.  your world seems to revolve around that sort of thing.