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Dragon Boat Canada


IDBF


Canoe Kayak Canada

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[paddleBOT]

PEL vs GEMINI vs BUK.  Paul Zap imports PEL.  Mike Kerkmann is with GWN and he imports BUK.  Both side with their boats while saying that paddlers don't like GEMINI.

Mike states that BUK is the most used in Nth. America for IDBF races.  Paul Zap says other makes not given a chance and that PEL is built by Plastex and Ben Pel, both solid builders.

They also talk about spacing on the boat and how BUK and PEL have 10 seats only and are roomier.  Mike doesn't want people to associate BUK with GEMINI because it seems like people are since they both come out of Europe.

There's also a little blurb from some guy in Victoria (Ocean River) who bought GEMINI with Alcan and FCRCC, but now wants to sell and pick up 6-16 instead.

[Steamrollers Moaner]

BUK's all the way.

Pel sounds like cheap plastic

[DBWTim]

The topic about the Gemini's is probably the biggest thing in dragonboat this season. I don't think I have ever seen a more negative public reaction to anything...   Many teams will probably not attend any races that run Gemini boats due to their experiences this year.

In regards to the future of those boats, I hear that the Gemini's in False Creek may be in for some "MacGyver" work over the winter. Unfortunately for the people that hate them, it won't involve any sledgehammers and cursing... of course that may be a really good fundraising idea... $5 a swing at the boat with a sledgehammer... Anyways, back on topic, apparently they are planning to move the foot rests a couple inches forward so they're not right underneath the seats, as well as "sanding down" the footwell so you can fit your feet under without the need to paddle with shinguards.

[Paul Zap]

Well to begin with of course I am going to be a little biased but here it goes.

The Pel boat is the only boat that uses 100% Carbon Kevlar for the manufacturing of it's hulls. The hull is designed and manufactured by Plastex. Carbon Kevlar is a a superior material then Fibre Glass, and makes the boat a lot stiffer which is a huge factor in speed and agility of a larger boat. All the wood used in a Pel boat is Mahogony, not a bit of plywood on the boat. Mahogony, we feel, is a lot more durable and attractive wood then what is used on many other manufacureres. Plastex is a world renowned canoe and kayak manufacturer, could even be argued the best in the world. Ben Pel has been making Dragon Boats for over 10 years now. He finishes the wood on the hull by hand. The boat is extremely fast, a claim even Mike Kerkmann explains, due to the fact it levels out. It comes with 10 seat configuration only, and is priced far less then most boats out there. If one investigates the price of Carbon Kevlar canoe and Kayaks to Fibreglass ones you will notice that Carbon Kevlar boats are always more expensive. If you have any other questions please feel free to post and I will try and answer or email me directly at [email protected] .

[Imposter]

I have not tried the Plastex Pel boats, so can't comment on them, but Plastex is a reputable manufacturer.  I can not comment on materials between Pel & BUK, although carbon/kevlar is a more costly & stiffer material than fiberglass.   There are other DB manufacturers - Simon River now makes them.

GWN BUKs are superior to our Gemini's mainly because they were made with only 10 rows of seats.  Also, the seats are designed properly, so you don't gouge the back of your foot under your seat.

The purchase of the geminis this year was a huge mistake and showed a gross lack of judgement by those involved in the decision.  As I have stated before, I believe that this purchase was a huge missed opportunity to purchase quality boats and will hurt dragonboating in Vancouver, as very few people that I am aware of enjoy paddling in these boats.  

The only people accountable to the dragon boat community for this decision are the exec. of FCRCC, who jointly purchased these boats, along with Alcan & others (all being non-elected).  The gemini purchase alone is worth turfing out those on the FCRCC executive responsible for this decision.  As the FCRCC AGM is tonite, I would encourage all FCRCC dragon boaters (everyone who paid membership fees this past year) to come out & vote at the FCRCC AGM tonite.  Look at the FCRCC website for details.    

Note: I would pay more than $5 to take a sledgehammer to a gemini.

[Fisher]

I second what IMPOSTER says above. It was a big mistake that both the FCRCC and the festival purchased these smaller boats - I don't care if they are the "European" standard.

It doesn't matter what material these boats are made out of; carbon/aircraft aluminum/titanium. Fundamentally the hull design is no good. Not only are the sitting space too tight for the paddlers, just ask your drummer and steersperson how they feel. Most hang on for dear life because the hull is tippy and it rocks side-to-side. They are also slower

There must have been a conspiracy for FCRCC and the festival purchased these boats at the same time with absolutely no consultation to the dragon boat community at large. There was a rumor that some kind of commission was invloved......can someone verfiy this.

I say we cut our loss and go back to the good old 6-16.

[Paul Zap]

Just to clarify a few things on the Pel, BUK and the Gemini.

First these boats are not European standard, it is international standard. When I check the times of the championship races it appears the Gemini is faster then the 6-16 by those posted. In lower less expereinced divisions it is not as clear cut. this does probably have to do with the fact that you do have to have stronger technique in an international boat then the larger 6-16.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying the 6-16 is not a fine Dragon Boat, it is, but they are different beasts. also a lot has to be taken into consideration in regards to what most teams have been brought up on. Out East people would crucify the 6-16 as a large barge and slower then the BUK and now PELS we race out here.

The discomfort in the Gemini can be attributed probably to the fact that it has 11 rows of seats. While I do not beleive the commission rumour for a second, I do beleive the rumour that 1 row of seats maybe taken out. If that is done you will probably find the boat more comfortable to race in.

[paddleboy]

I have raced in at least 6 different dragonboats and for sure the gemini design w/ the 11 seats is the worst .It was a extremely poor decision ordering these boats w/ 11 seats .They should have done a little more research and not have been so rushed in getting the order in . They should have actually tried them out first .

 We were looking at the gemini's last nite and trying to figure out how you would modify them for 10 seats and it would be a huge undertaking and you would have to order a new top seat section ,seperating the upper and lower halfs which I'm sure would not be cost effective . If the boat had 10 seats it would alot more comfortable and probably faster .The 11th seat is useless so it kinda shows the boat was not tried prior to placing the order.Modifing the gemini by cutting out the lower section of the seat is really of little help ,it needs 10 seats to become a better boat to race in .

 I liked the SRS boat they used in montreal ,my only complaint would be it's flex's quite abit and the rear seat is on the tight side but it's the size of a gemini w/ almost the room of the 6-16 ,very comfortable to race in .

[Imposter]

The geminis should be much faster than 6-16s, since they are considerably lighter, however, this was overcompensated (particularly by the less experienced teams) by the reduced length & power of the paddle stroke - dictated by the cramped seating.  

I imagine that to remove a row of seats, all of the seats would need to be removed (as they are all molded together), and a new seat mold of 10 rows of seats would need to be installed - which is what should have been done in the first place (and which GWN has done for all their BUKs) - and as any intelligent persons would have realized when ordering new boats.
By going to 10 rows, I think that the geminis could be salvageable.

[Kibble]

Just being Devil's advocate...   Here's another side to the picture...

Please note:
1. This individual was not involved in the decision making process to purchase the Geminis.
2.The comments below are by no means a reflection of my own opinions.

"...obviously there was a timeline involved in getting the boats ordered, manufactured and shipped here in time for Alcan (with sufficient time for teams to orientate and make adjustments prior to the festival). Given the magnitude of the purchase, I am quite sure that those involved with the decision making process did their due diligence, especially so given the coordination between various parties and the natural accountabilities that flow therein.
 
Eleven seats are the standard configuration and given that the bulk of the duty of these boats will be practice mode the decision is obvious as it would be very difficult to run practices (i.e develop paddlers) with just a race crew compliment during the season. Keeping it in perspective, the boats have only been used with 20 paddlers for a total of two days of racing in the past six months.
 
So its a choice ... one inch more for 20 people or leave a few people on the dock.
 
In the final analysis, the best teams find ways to adapt and execute ... and don't blame their equipment."

and from the Yahoo Groups forum:
 

"Regarding the 11 bench Gemini delivered to Vancouver.  My understanding, after speaking with the buyer this past June, was that the 10 bench version was requested but Gemini did not have a 10 bench interior mold version so it could not be ordered at that time."

[Steamrollers Moaner]

Eleven seats are the standard configuration and given that the bulk of the duty of these boats will be practice mode the decision is obvious as it would be very difficult to run practices (i.e develop paddlers) with just a race crew compliment during the season. Keeping it in perspective, the boats have only been used with 20 paddlers for a total of two days of racing in the past six months.
 
So its a choice ... one inch more for 20 people or leave a few people on the dock.

Give me a break!!  Any coach trying to squeeze another couple of paddlers in into seat ONE should start looking for a different sport to coach soon.  Even tiny asian girls wouldn't fit into that seat comfortably!!!

I did that once...  and let's just say the practice didn't really go well  

[Fisher]

Actually, of these 3 models of short boats, I believe only the GEMINI complies with the IDBF rules which stipulate 11-benches. 10-bench models do not meet the "International Standard". That's probably why GEMINI did not have a 10-bench interior mould as they only make 11-benches in Europe in order to meet the IDBF specifications.

Apparently, in the upcoming 5th World Championships, Shanghai will be using boats close to 50' (similar to the 6-16's 48') instead of the "International Standard" short boats.

So here is a great myth-buster: We do not need "International Standard" boats to hold IDBF World Championships. Why in the world did we get these short boats in the first place?  

[Imposter]

Anonymous wrote:
"...obviously there was a timeline involved in getting the boats ordered, manufactured and shipped here in time for Alcan (with sufficient time for teams to orientate and make adjustments prior to the festival).  


With such a major purchase, there should have never been a rush decision.  What's the rush?  If boats aren't available for Alcan, then use the 6-16s.

"Given the magnitude of the purchase, I am quite sure that those involved with the decision making process did their due diligence, especially so given the coordination between various parties and the natural accountabilities that flow therein. "

Don't think so... any idiot can see that the first seat is useless, which defeats the purpose of going with 11 rows of seats.  I understand they used one of the paddlers racing in Poland to check out the boats - who knows...

"Eleven seats are the standard configuration and given that the bulk of the duty of these boats will be practice mode the decision is obvious as it would be very difficult to run practices (i.e develop paddlers) with just a race crew compliment during the season. Keeping it in perspective, the boats have only been used with 20 paddlers for a total of two days of racing in the past six months.

So its a choice ... one inch more for 20 people or leave a few people on the dock. "

Wrong - as discussed already, you can't get 22 people on these boats anyways.  Besides, there are usually less than 20 paddlers at most practices.  You also gain considerabley more than 1" per seat with 10 rows.


"In the final analysis, the best teams find ways to adapt and execute ... and don't blame their equipment."

Gee, thanks for considering us paddlers considering that your are spending paddlers money on these new boats.  
[/quote]

[False Creek]

Adrian Lee have been peddling the GEMINI to Greg Lamb and Don Irvine very hard the last couple of years.

I guess they bought the pitch by Adrian. It's a shame.........

[Kibble]

Actually, of these 3 models of short boats, I believe only the GEMINI complies with the IDBF rules which stipulate 11-benches. 10-bench models do not meet the "International Standard". That's probably why GEMINI did not have a 10-bench interior mould as they only make 11-benches in Europe in order to meet the IDBF specifications.

Actually, the IDBF now recognizes 10-bench models as spec.  

Both the Gemini and the BuK (and the PEL, Donicario and others) have the same basic hull shape which is based on the International Dragon Boat Federation specification for the International Standard Racing Dragon Boat.

Although all ISRDB must have the same exterior shape, the interior design of the boat can vary according to the latest IDBF spec sheet.
 
BuK has been building the 10 bench boat for North America since 1999 and the boat has been used at every major, sanctioned North American event since then, including 2001 World Championships in Philadelphia.  IDBF now recognizes the 10 bench boat as the International Specification.
The 12 bench boat continues to be the Euro Spec boat.