Dragon Boat West

Could anyone explain in greater details on how time penalties are assessed?

How are they given and by who? how many seconds usually? etc.

Thanks.

Did your team get tagged with a penalty? I think your coach might be able to explain that for you.  :P

Check out those for greater details in Alcan's example; similar rules should apply in other festival.

http://dragonboatbc.ca/docs/rules_regs_faqs.pdf
http://dragonboatbc.ca/docs/2008_official_rules.doc

Usually they're given by the referees and officials, with penalties up to 30 seconds at times. (The most I've seen without being disqualification.) Given the rules explained, I don't think that our little clash with the Gorging Dragon was worth either side being penalized anyway since no actual collision was involved if that's what you're wondering about.

No, our team wasn't tagged with a penalty.
But i am curious as to why Gorging didnt get a time penalty though.
I've read both those links and the Word document has three sections (8.1.5, 9.1.2, and 9.15) that applies to that heat.

I would hardly consider the incident a little clash. I have gashes on my paddle because it was involuntarily introduced to 2-3 other paddles and my paddle also knows Gorging's steersperson's oar very well after that heat. Same sentiments goes for the paddlers in front of me and behind me.

Video evidence pretty much backed up what happened anyways. Gorging was repeatedly warned at least TEN times during a HALF A MINUTE span of the video to correct their course. and they did, AFTER much paddle banging. Towards the 7th or 8th loud warnings, its appears that the steersperson took his eyes off his course and looked towards the refs and flipped the bird. (i could be wrong)

I was miffed because of the near collision but hey things happens right? so i let it go...until the water ref came over and explained to our steersperson why Gorging came into our lane. He basically said that the steersperson for Gorging was experienced but their boat was just pushed into our lane by the waves or whatnot (there wasnt any waves in the video)

What kind of an excuse is that? and why was that action defended? seems a little biased to me.
and where was the penalty assessment?

the official rules states that if a 3rd warning has to be given for you to correct your boat, you will be given a "stop paddling" or DQ or at the very least a penalty.

any half decent steersperson knows how to turn a boat to its right side in the time that it took me to write this sentence. seriously.

Rant off.

Hmm...  Similar thing happened to us a few years back in Kelowna during a heat.  At that time, Gorging pulled over into our lane.  Their streering oar hit out front and the race was halted.  The ref gave our stears person a warning!  In the restart, they did it again.  But as the race was further along, it continued.  It was a spectacular, turn on a dime move to swing our front out of their way that prevented another collision.

Afterwards, the Gorging coach explained that as Kelowna does not have marked lanes, and they wanted our lane, so they took it.  Now why?  I have no idea.  It's not like we were in the same league as they were/are and it is not a move they could pull in a semi or final as they would never get a lead on the other boats to pull it off.

Go figure.

The others factors that ref's, the race committee officials, the race director and the protest committee consider, if an issue comes to them, is whether the offending team benefitted significantly from the perceived infraction, whether another team was negatively impacted or whether the outcome of the race was significantly altered, and whether after all is said and done, was the outcome fair to all.

We'd all like to see penalities for unsportsman-like behavior and callous rudeness, disregard and disrespect towards officials and competing teams however there is not much in the rules to support this...except in the most extreme of cases - and then penalty imposition is at the descretion of the race officals, not the racing community at large.

Race officials don't want to be overbearing and give penalities for penalty sake, in the absence of the above considerations. More often warnings are given and if a repeat offence occurs in a subsequent race then points may be assessed.

Hope this helps - from a long time coach, race official, racer etc.etc. etc.

Hmmmm
Gorging came into our lane in Vernon last year in the final and T-boned us.

I am seeing a trend here

Don't want to bash Gorging at all as they are nice people, but there seems to be a common theme.

While certain steers people are known for these habits it is unfortunate that they sometimes impact the result of a team who had the unlucky situation of being slotted next to them. While some teams can stand up to the challenge and overcome this adversity other's tend to get rattled and end up having a lesser outcome than anticipated.

Not sure what the officials can do as they do try to call these teams off during the race but to no avail. Time penalties are issued and even a DQ if required but what about the team that they impacted? No time is awarded to them for having their race/focus disrupted.

Any valid suggestions on how to control 'wash riders' and make them adhere to the rules of the sport?

This issue is tricky because it is hard to make a distiction between a momentary steering error or lapse of control  and intentional crowding and/or actual wash riding (either  riding the bow wave or the trailing wash of the leading boat).  Theoretically, and in reality, you can be in your own lane but still crowding or wash-riding the boat in the lane next to you, if they are also close to the lane boundary.

Whether a boat is simply crowding another boat or wash-riding, either intentionally or not, there are 3 things the ref.'s look for: the first is whether the offending boat makes a correction when asked to; the 2nd is whether one boat gained or the other lost position; and whether or not the offence was intended to gain advantage (whether it did or not). 

The last point above is hard to prove so ref's have to be on the ball - a 2nd offence for a team is a dead give-away however and you will notice that Lao'yam(sp?) Eagles were DQ'ed in the Comp A Final for this very reason (appearing to gain advantage by moving into the slipstream (wash) of the boat beside them, gaining momentum and then slipping out and up beside the boat they rode wash on).

My team being relatively new to this steer's "habits" did get rattled a tad bit and we ended up not doing our normal rate right after the incident. so our race/focus was disrupted, and we ended up losing. our time was 2:06 to their 2:02.

had we raced our own race with no interference from Gorging, they could have lost for all we know. who knows? =P

so yes, i'm beginning to see a trend as well.
Our teams are not in the same league yet they still attempted to take over our lane. They could have just paddled their best and beaten us anyways. so what gives?

Video link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W40bZhJndk# (High quality available - click on link below the vid)
Pay attention from the 0:28 mark all the way to 0:57.
Tell me i'm wrong about him flipping the bird at the officials.

I have no intention to bash Gorging whatsoever, but maybe they should really reconsider the negative image (of unsportsmanship) that their steers will portray. If he keeps this up (which history seems to agree), the way he conducts himself in the club crew world championships in Malaysia will be an embarrasment to vancouver and canadian dragonboaters in general.

It would be a shame if the innocent paddlers of Gorging get penalized at Malaysia for behaviors such as this.

To be honest, that's a rather blurry video. :S We'll have to ask John for the original video if he still has it, but it's simply unfortunate that sometimes penalties simply are not handed out. I didn't pay much attention to the other paddlers behind me, but I'm certain that the front four seats on the right at least kept paddling while their left lost a few strokes. Do referees put that into account?

Anyway. I'd like to see how this turn out if anyone's going to deal with it. (Unfortunately, I doubt it if the history has any say.)

Maybe Henry didn't hear the boat marshall call him off the thirteen or so times. Good surge your crew had there for a bit.

It really is up to the race referee(s), starter, protest committee (if a protest is lodged) to decide if there was impediment or not.  In this case they did not feel there was one.

If a team believes they were wronged there is the ability to protest a race, you need to do that within "x" number of minutes of the race. There is a fee involved to make sure teams do not lodge protests for the sake of lodging a protest.  Did anyone lodge a complaint?  If not then there was no big concern there was a problem.

As for the incident being referred to, from my vantage point there was not a clear impediment to either team.  Based on what has been stated, by NFW, the steering oar of Gorging hit some paddles which means Gorging had to be ahead.  One team (NFW's) got rattled because of this...chalk it up to racing experience.  With experience what happens outside your boat will not affect you, I bet Gorging was not affected by the incident.

As for the comment about Laoyam, the incident was in the Open Championship and in that case there was definitely grounds for a penalty or DQ (which is what happened).

NFW, do you think you were affected in what division you ended up in?  If so then I can see why the concern but if you believe you ended up where you should have then as I said before, chalk it up to racing experience and learn from it.  Are you upset that your paddle has a battle scar on it?  Is it a new paddle?  Battle scars are great, it shows experience, you should see mine (might have been put on deliberately by myself though  :D.  Hopefully by the time you hang up this paddle it will have many memories attached to it (i.e. dents, etc).

If you are going to be in Victoria then hope for a rerace with Gorging but I am not sure they will be back from Penang (based on what I heard they won't be).  Then again there is always next year  :).

If I was you, I would go give your steersperson a hug (in a non-sexual way of course) for doing a good job holding his/her own against them.  I have seen many a steersperson over correct to avoid it and loose it.  If that happened then there would be lots of things to say.

Thanks for the support, our surge was only because their left and well-hidden paddlers lost a few strokes during the clash. (I was on the right side and rubbed more than a few elbows with them, so it was a bit of a relief to have more room to paddle. :P) IIRC they finished their last race among the under-two-minute dogfight that is Comp A, didn't they? If they're really ahead from the beginning of the clash, it might've not affected our ranking anyway judging by the finish times of the other teams.

I'll be sure to let our steerperson Andrew know about your compliment for him. :P

click on "watch in high quality?" cause that made it significantly clearer...and yeah, i saw the potential 'flipping of the bird.' Regardless, you guys raced well :)

that potential flipping of the bird could potentially be a hand signal to the drummer to coordinate a call during the race...    ;)

Being the guy who was responsible for lanes 1 through 3 I was not directly behind lane 5. But I did not notice anything vulgar with Henry's hand. I did see it up in the air but did not notice anything unusual with it. In fact it seemed to me that it was a hand gesture like one that waves sort of either frantically or just puts a hand up to acknowledge that they have been spoken to.

That flip of the finger is good enough to make Big Bird proud.  And maybe ... Magnum did so well in that race because Magnum's boat was getting pulled along with Gorging.  Who knows . . .  :shock:

Hm if I look closely it doesn't seem like a wave of acknowledgement. If he had acknowledged the efforts of the coachboat he might have corrected it right away instead of have them call on GH a few more times.

He does it twice, at :37 and :57, yet there were still paddles clashing. He had quite a lot of control of that boat, since he was steering with one hand so confidently while raising the other hand. It seems like he knew what he was doing.

Regardless, good race all teams... lets hope it doesn't happen too often in the future  :x

No, i dont think that it affected what division our team ended up in, so i will chalk it up to race experience.
I think the issue i have with this is the fact that he has a clear disregard towards the race officials and to the other teams racing with them.
Honestly, what an ass. So whether it was 10 warnings or 13 warnings, He needs a set of hearing aids all the same. I'll be sure to tell him so if i see him in Victoria. Shoot, maybe he wouldn't be able to hear me then either.

As for my paddle, its bound to get wear and tear anyways, so battle scars indeed. (fyi, i didnt name my paddle lol)

I'll consider the hug when i see my steersperson lol. Thank god he's actually competent.


Holy moly you're right, maybe my team did so well because we were pulled with Gorging...Its called wash riding is it?

Maybe Gorging does so well in other races because they get in other boat's lanes and get pulled along with other better teams. Who knows... :shock:

wow dude (or dudette?), get over it & let it go.  there are more important things in life than a dragonboat race.  We got cut off by team Macau in the 2000m CCWC, and we bumped them and were disqualified for it.  it was the freakin club crews, and we lost out on a gold medal.  slightly more significant of a race than race #1 of Alcan, but we didn't let it bug us that much.  We just used it as motivation for future races and training, and it became a running joke instead of something we were bitter about. 

There is another issue to consider for race organizers.  We all know that these boats are honking machines and, in the event of a collision, could create quite a bit of harm.  Heaven forbid that something drastic should happen, but if it did, and it was determined that the responsible team had a history of seemingly reckless control of their boat, signed waivers aren't going to hold up in the courts especially if race officials failed to enforce the rules!

All things said, a one second penalty won’t break the bank, but might encourage a little more restraint in a future race.

OMFG!!!! hahaha I can't believe what I'm reading on this thread! For once Colossus is the sane one of the bunch here.... Just drop the subject people, welcome to dragon boat racing, you're not in the finals of the World Championships where you've been busting your ass 5 to 7 times a week for years (or in Gorging's case, 12 times a week) if not more to paddle for a world title, and then to lose out on it because of a combination of wind, current and steering.

Things can be a lot worse, so stop beating a dead horse:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vvFzZDprfL0

now THAT's a crash. Life goes on, next race, next festival, next season.

thanks!  8))

and I agree.  thats determination, concentration, and skill, right there. 

Using it as a motivation is a good idea Colossus.
like i said already, this will be chalked to race experience.
so consider it let go.
and that's dude. =D



The video is impressive indeed.

Its called a forum for a reason, to discuss issues/concerns/infos.
If you think that we need to stop beating a dead horse, why dont you contribute by NOT replying to this thread and bumping it up. (thereby dropping the subject)
Let the thread die on its own accord.
This will be my last post in regards to this topic due to the potentiality of this thread taking a turn for the worse.

Cheers.

sometimes this forum is so dead and dry, that bumping these threads is the only way to keep things/people going.  Plus, its fun to constructively stir the pot every once and a while; keeps people on their toes and makes them think about what they really want to say and think about what they're reading. 

Yikes...that was crazy.  Isn't there a rule where if anything happens before, or up to the first set of buoys, that you can protest on the spot, and they will re-race?  They were clearly crossing in your lane, because lane 5's buoy was yellow, and you can see it wasn't to the left, but to the right of the boat as they passed.

However, that being said, I do recall the starter saying just before marshaling to the start line, to some degree of "all boats, your marker is to your left. You must finish the race in your lane your you will be penalized".  After she said that, I remember asking myself, you mean to tell me, any boat can take any lane, as long as you cross the finish in your own lane?  So it could be steer error, or it also could be they are using what was stated (not sure if it is in the rule book) to their advantage.  Doesn't seem fair, but advantageous to one team.

OMG again!!....so what you are saying is that a less than straight line is more advantageous than staying in your own lane??? I say it was a error...nothing more.......things happen get over it.

yep, thats correct.  cause according to that video, making huge detours will help you win the race.  :lol:

     No offense but there is no way in hell you would have beaten Gorging. Collision or no collision. Not trying to be nasty, but they, along with FCCRC, Kai and Hale are in a different league than the rest of the teams around here. The collision had no bearing on the outcome of the race whatsoever which is probably why there was no penalty applied to them.
     Secondly, the other collisions that have been mentioned in this thread all had different sterns. So there is no "trend" or "history" there. What happened at Alcan was a simple steering error. The boat went off course at the start. Henry mistook the lane markers and thought he was in his lane. When he realized he wasn't he corrected and they finished the race. Hardly trying to "take over" your lane.
      I know most of the Gorging paddlers quite well and they are some of the most sportsmanlike paddlers out there. I can guarantee you that they will not be an embarrassment to anyone in Malaysia. (certainly not Vancouver since they paddle out of Victoria.)
      As for the comment about Gorging doing well because they get pulled along by other teams, I'm hoping it was made tongue in cheek. (so hard to tell in this medium) If it wasn't, I would say its pretty hard to get pulled along when you're the team leading the race....

hey i remember that race... you guys complained and got time taken off...?? 

I know that i said that i will not post again regarding this issue, but i feel a need to clarify a few things.


First off, No offense taken whatsoever.


As you see, I completely agree with you in terms of Gorging not being in the same league as ours.
My comment about my team beating Gorging was indeed made tongue in cheek, because i wrote the "who knows? =P"  to inject some humor into this issue. (albeit dry and subtle humor)

     
If that was the case (of different steers), then i also agree there is no "trend". although it does seems to be a common reoccurence. As for Henry having a simple steering error, the last thing i'll say about that is that there's always a few diff side to a story.


In no way shape or form that i am saying Gorging paddlers are unsportmanship-like. Nor did i say that the paddlers would embarrass Victoria (fixed =D) and Canadian dragonboaters in general. My comments was referring to the possible actions taken by the steersperson only, that could jeopardize Gorging.


Again, it was another comment made tongue in cheek, because if you see, I was replying the comments with same format. I even used the same :shock: icon.

It was not a steering error. If it was I don't believe we would have seen the the questionable hand gesture. This steersperson is very experienced and has raced venues worldwide and knows which markers are his. And yes it has been done before by this team and other high calibre teams.

      Then what was it? What possible gain could come from cutting off a team you are already ahead of and who had no realistic chance of catching you? Not to mention the fact that you have just made the course longer for yourself....

You don't always have to be behind to take advantage of a boats wash, just experienced in finding the wash current. This is my final .02 cents worth on this matter. Case closed.

From Wikipedia:
The international standard racing rules call for each boat to steer down the centre of her respective lane and to not ride the bow wave (wash ride) of a boat in an adjacent lane by coming along side close aboard to take advantage of the bow wave induced surface current. Wash riding is considered to be cheating under international competition regulations and is subject to sanction by on water referees or course umpires.

Here have fun with reading this link, pertains more to the lead or adjacent boat:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/135730/thread/1214501126/last-1215039540/Wash+Riding+-+effect+on+the+lead+boat

I can't help it...here's my 2 cents. 

The problem with Festival racing is it not fair.  If it is in Vancouver Kelowna, Victoria..and so on there are big issues if your your not racing just for fun and want to have your best placement. 

Some Issues are:
Not enough lane markers so boats can go into other lanes. No held starts. Tides. No real clear finish line. Uneven boats.

Some teams bend rules because they know they  can get away with it. Examples:  Running starts, starting over the start line, wash ridding, cutting off teams, sandbagging, substituting people not on there roster...and I sure there are things I can't think of.

That's why many of us prefer sport racing... the events brought to you by Dragon Boat Canada.  There are governed by the IDBF rules and are enforced. 

Everyone has IDS, and are checked.  Held starts. proper marked lanes even boats etc.  And the best thing...no life jackets.

My point is, if your team gets a chance, try racing sport events. 

I can't see festival racing getting much better.
               

Rob, i challenge the notion that most of the teams that race in our local venues aren't racing for both fun and best placement.

 I think your note misses the point that the races held in False Creek, Whistler, Vernon, Kelowna, Victoria, Nanaimo and anywhere else you care to mention take advantage of available facilities and provide these places with a race of their own.  They may be cruder in the sense that there are more variable conditions than on a tank course with a held start but  I also remind everyone that dragon boats are open water vehicles and the variablities on open water apply to all.  Sure, racing them on a defined flat-water course may be more precise  but I would be surprised if the actual outcome of a race, in terms of boat placement, would differ whether it was raced on a course or at Alcan on False Creek....it would simply be a different experience.

I also challenge the notion that these races are not fair.  At Alcan for example the course has been surveyed so while the start and finish line bouys float around a bit the start/finish officials know precisely where they are - as you know the  finish line is electronic with a camera and a clock.  The start, because it is not held may inject some variability but as long as teams respond to the start's commands and move forward, back and hold when told to do so it will be a fair race....starters know how to spot a team who is not holding ( ie trying to carry some of their momentum into their start) - more likely than not if a start is uneven it is because a boat failed to move promptly forward when asked to do so so they get left behind.  Those teams that practice their starts under non-held conditions and obey starter's command get a fair start! 

Are their variables on an IDBF course - yes...and are all lanes the same - no. If there is wind there is wind-drift and this will vary from lane to lane...also current if you are on a river or flowing reservoir.  Unless you are in a tank the water depth may vary lane to lane and this will affect perofrmance particularly if depths vary over and under 6 feet or so.  The other considerations, especially for outside edge lanes, is whether there is a shore or edge wave bouce to deal with, and or waves coming in from open water.

As you may know Water's Edge conducted the Nationals last year at Calgary under IDBF rules and certification and of course many of these same people are involved in racing events locally ranging from Alcan, Deep Cove, Vernon etc etc. and they bring much of the IDBF discipline to these events.  I also think that many of the officials, whether Water's Edge or not, have taken the IDBF certification course.

Admittedly, different boats wtihin a race can cause some unfairness, but more recently, as in IDBF races, a lot of effort has been placed in regional races to ensure the same kind and condition of boat is used in each race.  For the most part each race uses either a BUK or a Gem (or Millenium or w.h.y) and most of these, witihn a given race, are either new of are of simiilar condition.

Speaking of IDBF racing at Calgary, where the lanes were all bouyed, I saw wind and current variations between lanes, I saw boats flip over due to waves,  I saw experienced steerspeople get disoriented and end up crossing lanes on a diagonal thinking that they were still in their own lanes, and I saw boat still in their lanes  wash ride adjacent boats (they were given warnings) - I wondered at the time if racing there was really any better than Alcan.

By all means if you get an opportunity to race in an IDBF level racing sport event go for it - but it ain't the end-all and be-all of dragonboat racing.  (I too have raced in both).

I have seen races run on freshwater lakes that have been able to use small floating docks at the back of each individual lane as well as on either side of the start line. The floating docks at the rear of each lane were used so that a person on each dock could hold the rear of the boat until given the "release boat" order by the starter. The "mini-docks" on either side of the start line
had a small public address system speaker sitting on them so that all teams were able to hear the starting horn at almost the exact same time. This was the case in Sudbury,Ontario in July of 2005
on Ramsey Lake. That year the Sudbury Dragonboat Festival was also a qualifier to earn a berth
at the 2006 WCCC.
The point I'm making here is that it is physically possible to have held starts at RTADBF(see Taiwanese Dragonoboat Festival) from either end of False Creek, although putting "mini-docks"
at/or near the Cambie Bridge side of the course may not be allowed because False Creek is considered to be a "working harbour"(of sorts) and these "mini-docks" might be considered a marine hazard.

Wet spot, I agree with you completely about the fairness of the various venues, I was going to write something similar about most festivals being pretty good with the right outcomes and even IDBF sanctioned events have some issues of unfairness due to lanes, wind etc.

As for the comment on the GD steersperson, I saw him in the beergarden and he said that their start is very powerful and he's lost balance a few times (I can't remember which boat he said was worse, the Gem or the Buk, but the footing in one he found more difficult to get used to).

Having steered for a competitive team I know that the power can make it more difficult to control than a Rec team. Steering is a thankless job, when you go straight nobody thanks you, when you don't everyone blames you.

Wet spot,

I am not putting down Water's Edge, I think they do a great job.

I am just pointing out that there's limitations when it comes to Festival races because of the venues:

Let's take Kelowna. The wind last year picked up and screwed up the placements.  The other problem has been unfair lanes, the outside ones tended to have better placements.  Also there had been problems with uneven boats.

Let's take Vancouver.  Tidal.  When we raced the other way there was a huge current in the outside lanes. Now if you have to deal with other currents when the water comes in and swirls in the other direction.  (Right DWW)   

Then there is the biggest problem I see with placement that most paddlers don't know.  When a fast team like False Creek races, other teams come close to wash ride.  It gives them a better placement.

The Bald Eagles have had better placement with wash ridding for a while, until the raced Masters of D'Zone, and Masters complained and the Eagles got a couple of seconds added. 

How many times did they and others not get caught affecting placement?

How many times have paddlers not get caught taking forward strokes before the horn on the start.  (I know a member of False Creek got caught in the False Creek Regatta).

I know that everyone at the festivals works hard.  I just am saying that the races are not fair.  I think they are fun, but the placement is not as important to me personally as having a good race.

I think sport racing is not always fair...but is trying  because of the stakes...of improving the sport to an Olympic level.

I think that the more teams that try that sort of racing, will bring up the level of the sport in Canada...and then it will be taken more seriously as a sport. 

I still enjoy festivals.  The beer Bong was great, thanks Calgary...but for the races, in my opinion, sport racing is where it's at.



 

This is a happy tune (http://beatthedeadhorse.ytmnd.com/).

Rob, I wasn't defending Water's Edge - they didn't even run Alcan this year or Kelowna last year.

I think we are debating the merits of open-water venues v.s. flat-water racing in a controlled environment so there isn't much point in taking this issue further on this thread.

I think you are talking thru your hat on most of the issues you raise and you haven't supported anything you have said with any factual info... it may be appropriate to "bring up the level of the sport in Canada" but surprised you would sh*t all over west coast racing on the basis of such little knowledge and narrow perspective in order to do it.