Dragon Boat West

On the ADBF site they mention this year they will be using a new fleet of BUK's for all races rather then the old Gemini's and 6-16's.  Does anyone know the exact model of these boats and can anyone post any pictures of what the seating and foot rests look like for those particular boats?  A web search brings up a variety of seating and foot rest configurations for BUK dragon boats.

 The seating in the BUK's is like a small board that runs crosswise across the boat ( gives your butt some nasty blisters ) and the bracing is this thingy that sticks up on the floor and is underneath the board you sit on....hope that helps  :mrgreen:

Look at the pictures to the right:

http://www.dragon.de/184-International-Racing-Boat.html


The boats that are being used at this year's Alcan will be the newest fleet of BUK's from Water's Edge (www.canpaddle.com).

thats exactly what I told him ...lol

does this mean we DON'T have to use the Gems?????????   :D

except ours don't have the center beam.   ...or do the ones the W.E. bought?

Speaking of  BUK boats, has any team out there besides us been having trouble with the fcrcc BUK boats? Our crews have had 2 instances were during practice one of the bolts that holds the steering oar mount has popped out. The second time this happened out steersman lost his balance and went for a swim. I am hopeful that this kind of incident will not happen during the Alcan races.

You might want to check the pictures again after a nap.  There is no center beam in a BUK!

damn...    in this photo, the center set posts look like a center beam.  :oops:
(http://www.dragon.de/files/thumbs500/innenschale.jpg)

Colossus,

I believe only half the races will be BuK (Geminis still live) but you could ask the festival for clarification.

ADBF

yes, this has happened to a few people who were caught unawares.  -/

At the ADBF team manager's meeting on april 11th, Race Director Greg Lamb said " Equipment – boats will be Geminis and BUKs"  - see   2007 ADBF Manager's Meeting Agenda  on  http://www.adbf.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=downloads.listbycat&catid=20 (http://www.adbf.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=downloads.listbycat&catid=20)

BUK's will be used for all Medal Finals races... Geminis will be used for consolation finals.
Just pretend that it is the same format and equipment as 2006, but instead of 6-16 boats... Geminis are being used.  And instead of Geminis... BUK's are being used.

BUK's are owned by Water's Edge and will be supplemented by other local BUK boats.

6-16 boats will not be used, because the fleet is getting old, and there is too much variation between the available boats.  For the best interests of races and race officials and paddlers, they are trying to keep the boats as even as possible - this means NO MORE BARNEY BOAT!

The BUK boats that are part of Water's Edge new fleet do not have the center beam running down the middle.  The foot rests are underneath the seats, in a molded "U" type fashion.  We bought one the BUK from that order.  If you need more information, you can PM me and I will try and get it too you.

Treat those BUKs with care. Leaving aside the steering pin issue, they look a bit more delicate than the Geminis or the 6-16s.

They are delicate! The steering pin is the main concern but no worries ...  We're treating it with paddle gloved hands.

That's just great! 

So some people get to practice in the BUKs while the rest of us ride it out in the ol' GENS or the 6-16's. 

Shades of old when they first bought in the GENS...we had to slug it out with sore backs (so, how does this works again?) so the King Pins could get their practice in for the medals and their pics in the Sun.

Duck people, we're canon fodder again!

what the hell are you going on about?  :?   and they're "Gem's", not "Gen's", as in Gemini.

seriously buddy, i dunno what you're ranting about.  BUK, 6-16 or Gems... what difference does it make?  just practice hard and your team will be able to beat anyone in any type of boat.  i bet you if you gave some of the top teams "barney" that they would still come up on top.

Sorry, could never call those boats "GEM"s

I doubt that given the rants that were posted on this site last year after the Richmond and Kelowna races...

^I agree, people will bitch and complain about everything. Especially the teams who have never practiced in a BUK before.

After the FCRCC regatta, my team loves the BUK's and I'm sure there's alot of others that love the room and the stability of them. The interesting part was the discussion about the steering piece of the BUK's before the race, and then a steering piece broke off on one of the BUK's causing the fleet of BUK's to be grounded and a subsequent long delay. I don't know if those BUK's were FCRCC or water's edge but let's hope the same thing won't happen at Alcan.

it broke more due to steers error (and weight yanking on it in a way it was never designed to be yanked) than faulty equipment. 
delay there may have been, but the regatta ended on schedule, and thats really all that matters. =)

Here's the story with the BUK steering.

 When the 8 new BUK's were delivered they came with plastic bolts to attach the steering cross-arm to the bulkhead of the boat.  These plastic bolts were designed to break away and allow the cross arm to detach in case of extreme pressure on the arm, such as in a collision with another boat or at the dock...this would prevent damage to the fibreglass bulkhead.

It appears, however, that an experienced steersperson making a hard turn can put more torque on the bolts thanthe bolts can withstand... and goodbye steering.

At the Deep Cove races, and again at the FCRCC races these bolts failed under normal use - e.g. Harvey of Eye of the Dragon and Jason of TD Lightning are both very  experienced steerspeople and they both had the cross-arm breakaway - Harvey was just leaving the dock and ended up in the drink!

I beleive that Water's Edge replaced thier plastic bolts with brass and hopefully all the other BUKsto be used at Alcan will be corrected as well.

I was a witness to the breaking of the steering arm at the FCRCC regatta. It was a steersmans error, as he was backing up and got the steering oar sideways, putting a great amount of torque on the steering arm, which snapped the brass bolts right off and dumped the steersman into the water. Most of the damage to the FCRCC buk boats has been just the same as this. In backing up the boat, the steersman should not have the steering oar completely submerged and vertical. This is inviting the same situation as what happened in the regatta. FCRCC has now gone to stainless bolts with the deck of the boat reinforced with extra fiberglass to withstand any steersmans error.   

^^^ agreed, as i said above.  whether or not you've steered before in 6-16s or the geminis, the BUK boats are a different beast.  I have no problems steering the 6-16s and Gems, but when i tried steering a BUK a couple of weeks ago, i very nearly went into the drink multiple times, and the boat most definately did NOT remain in a straight line.

Right on. What works in the 6-16, and the Geminis does not necessarily work on the buks. They are light, fast and delicate. We should treat them as such. They are as skittish as a thoroughbred should be.

Does anyone know if Buks will be at Dragon Zone for paddlers and steerspersons to practice in?  Perhaps exposing the Buks to more teams can prevent some incidences.. i.e. increased chance of steersperson falling in the water, and collisions, etc.

The BUKs being used for the ALcan Festival are owned by Waters Edge. They will be rented out to Alcan (Dragon Zone) for the event. I could be wrong, but from what I understand, Dragon Zone will have only Geminis and 6/16s available for practice.

Can anyone else confirm this?  I don't want to run out to the store and buy some brass bolts (what's the difference between brass and steel?) and find out it was a mistake.  The plastic bolts have broke off more than once with us and I was looking at something stronger to replace it with.

It is good to see we're not the only ones running into this problem.  The BUK itself is awesome but that steering cross arm!!!   :x

I asked ADBF if the BUK's would be available for practices leading up to ADBF weekend, a month ago.  The answer was maybe for the week before the races.  I did cite safety issues and familiarity with equipment as main importance for having BUK's available.  ADBF replied that the BUK's did not belong to ADBF - but were being rented from Water's Edge. 

It was also explained that when you travel to a different race site, you often have to familiarize yourself with new equipment immediately.  eg. Dynasty boats in Calgary, Millenium boats in Victoria, BUK's in San Francisco.

Years ago... ADBF used to have "Mandatory Practices" to help familiarize teams with the equipment, loading procedures etc.  This was especially important for novice crews, and it was to make sure that these crews had at least four practices before a race.  ADBF no longer has the mandatory practices, and instead gave coaching sessions to novice teams practicing from Dragon Zone to ensure safety, and familiarity with equipment. 

If these BUK's are so delicate, and skittish to handle, and prone to steering equipment breakages... safety become an even more important issue to ensure familiarity with equipment.

 the Buk's aren't anymore prone to breakage than any other boat .


 I saw what happened to the BUK,I was right there , and its was clearly the mistake of the steersperson and he is experienced I believe .He allowed the oar to go under as they were backing up .......He should have called for the boat to hold hard or paddle forward when he saw he made the mistake but he chose to try avoid embarrassment and try to correct the mistake himself, which as you can see did not work , and he went for a swim and the boat ended up damaged .

 This could have happened to anyone or any type of boat .In future I suggest if you're a steersman and make a mistake don't try to muscle it yourself ...you won't win in most cases .Tell the crew to hold hard and move forward...........

I think this steersman was between a rock and a hard place, namely a big ugly barge and an oncoming dragonboat. Your're right he should have held hard.But the BUKs have the U shaped steering bracket, unlike the Geminis and the 6/16s. The steering bracket cord on the Gem and 6/16 gives a lot when this problem occurs in those boats, and the BUK does not. This has resulted in breakage in all the FCRCC buks. Funny that the FCRCC other boats have not had any serious damage to the steering mechanisms, and this steering error happens often in all boats.

Have a look at the Concord Pacific and the Channel M 6/16s the next time you're at DragonZone.  Both boats have U-Bolt brackets and they are bent backwards from steerspeople pulling up too hard on the oar or the oar getting caught in the water while the boat is moving backwards.  The FCRCC 6/16 has had the steering arm ripped off on more than one occasion and the bolts forming the steering yoke on the Geminis are usually loose.

The main problem is a lack of experience and sloppy habits on the part of steerspeople.  What happened to Eye of the Dragon is going to happen occasionally, but the damage to the 6/16s at DZ is indicative of teams abusing the boats.

In my opinion, the current training for steerspeople does not adequately prepare novice steerspeople to physically handle the boats and what the limits are for what the boat can physically handle.

As for the plastic/nylon pins that were/are being used to mount the steering arm on the BUKs, my understanding is the intent of the break away pin is to minimize the damage to a boat when the steering arm hits the boat.  Again it comes down to teams not taking enough care with the boats.

StraightLine

Maybe I am just used to the BuKs (plenty of them around here in San Francisco), but I do not find them more difficult to steer than the Geminis.

Perhaps the difference in feel is in the arrangement of the steering boxes.  The BuK has a large flat steering platform, while the Gemini has a pit that is lower and more forward.  That may make the Gemini feel more stable to the steersperson standing there, but limit the ability to step back to raise the steering oar handle in challenging conditions.  That said, a novice steersperson in either a BuK or Gemini in challenging conditions (e.g. saturday afternoon last year at Treasure Island) will have a handful.

From what I have seen and heard about in San Francisco, damage to the BuKs seems to be from collisions, as opposed to bending up the U-bolt or whatever.  One collision resulted in breaking the wood piece for the steering oarlock (the wood piece was the only part that was contacted by the ramming boat), but no other damage.

6-16s are easier to steer in a straight line than either BuKs or Geminis.

I was under the impression the buk's at san fran last year were an "older model" than the ones we have on the creek up here, not sure if that equates to a difference in steering or not (I'd guess probably not)

I wonder though based on your comments if your Gemini's are different than ours?  maybe i'm misreading it, but our geminis have a raised platform for the steers to stand on vs a pit to stand in, which as a tall person i find somewhat unsettling in rough water as you become very top heavy.  I've never steered a buk, so i have no means for comparison, but personally if they feel less stable than a gem, i'll stick to paddling  :lol:

I think steering on Saturday afternoon last year would be challenging to most steers people. that was crazy

I've steered in both and the steering platform on a BuK is noticeably higher than the platform on a Gemini. So standing up in Buk feels less stable than the Gemini.

Also, the Gemini "paddler's seating pit" extends back behind the last seat a little bit whereas on a Buk it ends right at the last seat. So the steer's person area on a gemini sort of has this second lower level. Its not very big but its a good place to stick a foot to get a lower and more stable stance.

The BuKs at the 2006 San Francisco race were all of the older model, but the steering boxes are the same on the newer models.



The Geminis that I steered were in Vancouver in 2005.  I suppose you could stand on the "steps" behind the pit and steer -- that would definitely feel unstable compared to standing in the pit just behind the last seat.  It does look like the middle "step" in the Gemini is about the same level as the steering box in the BuK, but if you steer with one foot in front of the other, your feet will be on different "steps" (see the pictures below).

Below are pictures from the manufacturers' web sites:

Gemini steering area:
(http://www.gemini.gda.pl/My_Homepage_Files/IMG_192.jpg)

BuK steering area (two different views):
(http://www.dragon.de/files/thumbs500/steuermannflche.jpg)(http://www.dragon.de/files/thumbs500/innenschale.jpg)



Yes, I watched the head of the boat on the left get very close, then suddenly disappear behind as they lost control and veered to the right while I was giving maximum steering to the left to stay approximately on course.  In two different races.