Dragon Boat West

There was one very slow boat used in the heats on Saturday and another one in not very good condition either.

It was recognized Saturday morning that Boat 4 in the even heats hadn't been cleaned. It added something like 10 seconds. Lane 4 was for the seeded teams in the morning (who the organizers thought to be the top 16 teams) and the first place finishers in the afternoon. A lot of those teams that raced in that boat ended up with 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place finishes even though they were the strongest team in the heat.

Pacific Reach raced in the slow boat in the morning and had a 2:20. In the afternoon in a clean boat they raced 2:08. Dragon Hearts Team Ultimate was seeded in their heat but in the slow boat had a 2:32 and a 3rd place finish.

Unfortunately the result is that teams are not in the proper division. Faster teams in lower divisions is a shame. Even if your team didn't race in the slow boat you're still affected by having the wrong teams in your division.

We raced in boat 4 the whole weekend with no problems. As a matter of fact, we placed first in both races Sat., Sun. morning and placed 3rd (Platinum A..woohoo!) Sun. afternoon. As of this morning, we had the fastest women's team time of the regatta from our first race on Sat. We weren't told anything about a slow boat until shortly before the final, but honestly did not notice anything wrong. Too bad for the teams it affected. :(

I was told that the boats were pulled out of the water after saturday's races and were still dirty.  That was why Pac Reach and other teams in lane 4 were affected on saturday.  Can anyone clarify?

There's more to the controvery than simply slow vs. fast boats....altho' I suppose related to it.  In an attempt to be fair, the race officials tried to balance the results by docking 5 seconds from heats done in the "faster" boats.  As well, they used some formula whereby the times in each heat were averaged to help determine seeding.  So if you were in a "fast" boat in a slow field your average would have been seriously affected, which is exactly what happen to our team.  Where you placed in a heat didn't stand on it's own.  It was also a matter of fast vs. slow boats and the fastest and slowest times in your heat.  Our team was pretty p***ed!!!  At the end of racing on Sat. we had the 8th fastest time but because of this "formula, we ended up in the Jade semis.  We were happy enough with our gold in the Jade final but that wasn't consolation enough because we should never have ended up in this division in the first place.  We are definitely not a team that sandbags but it could certainly be seem like that if you weren't in the know!

I know that race officials heard much...from our team as well as others.  There seemed to be a willingness to hear us out and to make improvments for next year.  I appreciated their time on a busy race day.  However, being prevented from racing against those who are usually our competition was a disappontment.

 In a perfect world we'd paddle in boats of similiar speed.  Failing that, the formula used really needs to be addressed.  I suggest that in a 6 boat heat, the 1st and last times get thrown out and an average be determined from the remaining 4.  These times would give a more accurate picture of the competition within a heat.  I'd also really like to know all the factors that are part of this formula.  Maybe then we'd understand why where we finish in a given heat isn't enough.  :?

Blue number 4 on Saturday was defintely a 'slow boat'.  After complaints blue number 4 was moved to lane 6 for the Sunday finals (poor lane 6).  So to be clear no one in lane 4 on Sunday had a slow boat for the finals. For paddlers to pay a premium price to enter this festival premium boats should be made available and if not at least clean ones!  That is my only complaint regarding this weekend.  Nice job otherwise  :clap:

I have spent my fair share of time behind a finish line computer, and for the life of me, I cannot understand how officials can ever be justified in changing or docking time off races arbitrarily after they are completed.  To me that is a completely ridiculous slap in the face to the competition involved, no matter what factors (like perhaps a slow boat) seem to be causing a 'problem'.  You just don't do that.  If indeed it is true that that did happen, that is a shame.

My crew was affected by the slow boat in the first heat, and I found out about it on Saturday night.  We were disappointed, but realized that it was a good explanation for what happened.  We also discussed the fact that you can't fix something like that after the fact, because there are too many variables involved.  The crews pay an exorbitant amount of money for 4 races, and as such, the onus is on the race organizers to make sure that kind of thing doesn't happen in the first place.  What does it take to clean a boat off?   

I tend to think that looking at the way it all played out, no corrections were made to race times, as we saw strong teams all the way down in jade division.  I hope that is the case, and if not, let's just hope that kind of 'fixing' of problems doesn't happen at any other festival that crew officiates. 

I was hoping that the weekend up there would go smoothly and the event would show some improvements over the past few years.  From reading the posts it looks like they messed up again. 

Unfortunately it is things like this plus all of the other un-addressed issues that keep teams away.  I know of a few teams who do not go there anymore (mine included).  With the amount they charge you would thing they could fix some of the issues they have each year as well as making sure that things like this do not happen.  How tough is it to make sure the boats are clean?

You must have raced in the faster boats (BTW race 1 were the fast boats) and if you won that one then you were in race 25 which were also the faster boats (I know this since I watched every race).  Your team was lucky then ;-).  All champioship races were in the faster boats also.

Interestinlgly enough after the washing of boats and the  reconfig on Sunday morning the "slower" boat heats were much better, just look at the results.

BTW, great racing by your team!

Thanks! We've had a great season! (we were something like 31st last year..this year 3rd..lol) I suppose when you're lucky enough to miss the "slow boats" then everything is roses on the race course! It would be really great if there was a regatta with 12 boats of the exact same weight, speed, etc...then no controversy! :D

Hi everyone,


A quote from "Alcanranker"

Just to clarify a couple of points:

a.  Watersedge was not responsible for equipment at this event.  The equipment was sourced, delivered, and setup by others, Watersedge was strictly race management.

However, we will take these comments seriously and pass them to the Kelowna Festival for next year.

Thanks

If I were part of the "management," I would have checked on the boats to make sure the event I was "managing" went smoothy and that there would be no potencial issues. Like tying up your shoelaces before the big sprint! msn(:P)

I would agree with your comment, but when we inspected the boats on Saturday night, there were no "dirt" on the bottom of the boats....

So then pls clarify? What was the controversy?....I keep reading there were dirty boats....maybe they were water logged?

I'm not sure about boat 4 being dirty, but I know other boats were dirty too and not only on saturday. I know because I felt under the boats and not heard it second hand. I just assume the best that all boats were dirty and the races were as fair as they could be. That being said these problems should be looked at and taken care of for next year festival.


Just to clarify because I don't mean to disrespectful anyone, but was all boats checked, because I was quite certain the boats I felt under was dirty. I could peel off green gunk from the bottem of it.
Was a little surprise to see kelowna providing their own dragonboats, when I heard falsecreek was bringing up 6-16's

The problem with Boat 4 in the even heats was discovered half way through Saturday morning.

Water's Edge was going to clean it right away, then decided to wait until lunch, then decided to leave it until the end of the day.

At the end of the day it was cleaned along with the other Fraser Valley boat. These 2 boats were in lane 3 and 4 in the even heats on Satuday. For Sunday they moved them to lanes 1 and 6.

That was the best decision in this siutation. They cleaned them to make them as even as possible and put them in the outside lanes.

The way to improve this situation is obviously to make sure the boats are clean before the races start. If it happens that races start with a boat that isn't clean, the best thing to do is to take action AS SOON AS IT'S DISCOVERED.

The early Saturday morning races had already been run, there was nothing that could have been done about those results. The only mistake was that they decided to leave it as is and let 11 more teams race in it before they fixed it. The seeding race results were affected more than they had to be.

If I raced in an unclean boat in the early morning I wouldn't want them to leave it for other teams to try to keep it "fair", I'd prefer that they clean it right away so that the remaining races are actually fair.

I have to admit I was a bit surprised by which division some teams ended up in, but I guess the adjusting due to boats may explain it.  Our team (Dragnum aka HSBC Pure Energy from the Calgary Festival) put in a 2:16 in the morning and a 2:20 in the afternoon with a first and a second, but ended up in Diamond.  We ended up taking home some hardware (2nd) in Diamond, but I think we really should have been in platinum. 

Aside from the concern on the division placement I had a great time on the weekend, so overall good job on the race. 

I overheard a couple of crusty dragon boaters talking about the boats and they said that the boats had been in an accident some years back and were now stuffed with Bondo etc.  Nothing to do with the boats being particularily dirty, but they are toast in terms of balance etc.

Hey there:

This is my first post to DBW--howdy!

Aside from the dirty boats, does anyone know how many teams were affected by ridiculous wakes in Lane 6 caused by high speed leisure craft??? Our team took an extra long cruise to the finish line because of it and ended up in a much lower division in the finals on Sunday.

Were we the only ones? We were pretty choked and officials didn't seem to think anything of it when we protested. Is it far fetched to suggest a speed limit for rec boaters next year that stretches the 500m of the course from 8am to 4pm Sat/Sun??

Funny how many experts we have who watch the boats.  Now if they only had the story correct, lane 4 was moved to lane 6, lane 3 was left in lane 3 (as far as I know, do we have a picture to confirm the move to lane 1) and strange enough it was doing okay on Sunday (look at the results of the ODD numbered heats in the morning).  Were the boats dirty, not really but they did pull them to check on them.  I was there  :P.

Next rumor please, just kidding.

Yes we all want fair races.  I have seen the comments about the whole lane 3 and 4.  I have also heard about lane 5 (funny how no one has mentioned this boat).  Yes there were some heavier boats out there.  If you look on Sunday's results the "management" seemed to have corrected fairly well as the middle lanes (technically the "fastest" teams) were consistent.

If you want fair equipment definitely ask the festival to provide fair equipment as much as possible but it will be tough to find 12 like 6/16s (or any other type boat) in Western Canada.

IMO

So Water's Edge wasn't responsible for cleaning the boats, fair enough.  Kudos to them for electing to clean them up Saturday.  Although I don't think there's a single person who wouldn't mind if they took a few minutes to clean them up as soon as they found out they were dirty.

As far as fair races are concerned, it's perfectly ok to expect all boats to be cleaned properly.  And that'd be about the extent of it really.  Otherwise all you can hope for is event organizers doing their part to rent the best condition boats out there as possible.

The boats in question (lane 4  and 5 ) were the Fraser Valley dragonboats. To my knowledge the boats are well cared for and maintained. I coach on these boats and have noted that the boats although solidly rebuilt (these are the poor ones that fell off the trailer last year coming home from Alcan) may have other issues. It is indeed unfortunate that a boat can cause issues with some teams but like life, one has to over come and adjust to what ever is thrown at you. In a perfect world there would be 12  or more brand new boats awaiting you at every race in BC but that is not a reality. We all breathed a collective sigh of releif when Barney was left at DZ but little did we know his country cousins Ethel and Hubert would be there. The womens teams used the same boats (I was also steering a womens boat) and they did not seem to have as many issues as the mixed teams. Based on my experiences with my teams (we have had Barney and cousins in a lot of races at Harrison and Alcan) the only way to move them is to up your rate and lenghtening your finish doesn't hurt. . Sucks thought if the boats burned you, been there, done that, but what are we to do? Water's edge did their job and while the jury is still out on what they are responsible for I believe in the end the race organizers should ensure when they rent boats that they are cleaned by the clubs beforehand.

My 2 cents

What so I know, I just take pictures!
 :lol:

I agree that Water's Edge did a good job. I also agree that the slow boat should have been cleaned and moved to the outside lane as soon as it was known. I wouldn't object if I'd already raced in it, no sense making others suffer the same fate.

The finish line pictures do show a lot of solo boats crossing the line first, I was disappointed that the seeding didn't work out as well as it could have.

As for having 12 evenly matched boats, how about using six good 6/16s and then six good Milleniums from GO?  Water's Edge and GO may be rivals in organizing events but maybe pooling together would be in everyone's best interest.

well if I am reading correctly, we were in lane 6 for our final (Race 92) race and came in third....I was told that we were the only ones to actually place in that boat!  Imagine what would have happened if we actually had a "clean" or "better/faster" boat in our final.....great racing no matter what....

it is always good to be in a final that you are neck in neck with all of the other boats - which was not the case for us - we raced Sudden Impact in both the Semis and the Final....no comparison there...but we gave it a fight and came home with a medal none the less (Bronze in Jade).

thank you to "ALL" the organizers and volunteers for a wondyful weekend, I had a great time....as always. :P :P :P :P :D :D :D :D

This is a theoretical "what if" based on times, and I know you can't do this and it doesn't really mean anything, and I apologize to those teams in the slow boat in the final because it makes it look like you should have been in 3 divisions lower than you were which isn't the case, but imagine if the seeding worked out like this and the races were actually this close, it would be nirvana. Humour us here.

For recreational purposes only:

Platinum A
2:16.59 Pacific Reach 1
2:18.82 Acme Canoe Club
2:19.09 Swordfish
2:20.29 River City Dragons
2:20.32 Fresh Off The Dragon Boat
2:20.53 Dragnum

Platinum B
2:21.33 RGL United
2:21.76 Red Devils
2:21.86 Eye of the Dragon
2:22.56 PowerBar Dragons
2:22.56 Sssteam Heat
2:22.56 Sudden Impact

Diamond A
2:23.23 Hot Sake
2:23.46 Dragon Hearts Team Ultimate
2:23.80 Strathcona's Dangerous When Wet
2:23.86 Just Dragon Along
2:23.86 Shaggin Dragons
2:24.03 Guardian Dragons

Diamond B
2:24.16 Pacific Reach 2
2:25.35 Splash Test Dragons
2:25.37 Synergy Team 1
2:25.53 TD Lightning
2:25.63 Ready Jet Go!
2:25.70 Team Lifescan

Jade A
2:25.83 Portland Fire Dragons
2:26.00 NAVY Dragon Anchors
2:26.15 Weekend Warriors
2:26.27 Fluid Motion
2:26.40 TCC Epson Dragoneers
2:26.70 Topmade Fusion

Jade B
2:26.78 Uncivil Serpents
2:27.20 Alpha Dragons
2:27.40 Crews Control Reunited
2:28.44 Blu By U
2:28.61 Hot Knots
2:28.74 Team Ruckus

Gold A
2:28.74 Team Uproar
2:29.27 Dragon Hearts Flying Dragons
2:29.27 Scotiabank Dragons
2:29.52 Spirit of a Renegade
2:29.68 Canucks Crew
2:29.87 Synergy Team 2

Gold B
2:29.90 Extreme Currents
2:30.04 Finding BMO
2:30.18 Phat Phish Racing
2:30.71 False Creek Granddragons
2:31.24 Wave Runners
2:31.31 Red Hot Chili Paddlers

Silver A
2:31.34 Chilliwack Thunderstrokers
2:31.51 Absolute Dragons
2:31.73 SFU Dragon Bytes
2:32.41 Scaly Justice
2:32.55 Uhuru
2:32.81 Raunchy Rodents

Silver B
2:33.13 BC BLT
2:33.58 CBC Wave Catchers
2:33.61 Starbucks Wave Runners
2:33.70 Red Fusion
2:33.75 Raging Dragons
2:33.79 Topmade Fusion B

Bronze A
2:34.12 Pirates
2:34.22 Team X-Calibre
2:34.42 Scotiabank Dragons II
2:34.58 Gift of Life
2:34.64 Drunk'n Dragons - Fully Loaded
2:34.81 Bear Paws

Bronze B
2:35.01 City of Kelowna Blazing Paddles
2:35.18 Team Phoenix
2:35.38 CNS Insurance RRRamming Speed
2:35.66 Team Sun-Rype-100% Juiced
2:36.16 Go Fish
2:36.21 Red Eyes Paddling Club

Emerald A
2:36.37 The Grand Poobahs
2:37.36 Sun Strokes
2:37.36 Vancity Thunder
2:37.79 Water Whisperers
2:38.38 Scotiabank Spitfires
2:38.85 Army Dragon Forces

Emerald B
2:39.05 Nothin Dragon Seniors
2:39.92 Riff Raft
2:40.02 Lift What's Draggin'
2:40.38 The Strength Within
2:41.02 Lotus Mixed
2:41.63 Richmond Centre Dragoneers

Pearl A
2:43.22 Scotia Scorchers
2:45.06 Alberni Wave Riders
2:46.56 Team CT Calgary Transit
2:46.73 Delta Flying Dragons
2:47.53 False Creek Granddragons Too
2:48.13 Ritchie Bros. Auctionauts

Pearl B
2:54.60 Sonar Dragons
2:57.27 The Eh Team

Whoa!  Ok, I'd have to say that lane 6 totally sucked for the finals, especially in the Platnium A finals...ahem!  Putting the times that way, some teams even dropped 5 or 6 divisions!  I heard a comment that with all the pleasure craft closer to lane 6, the currents were against it, and perhaps the dirty boat business too.  Most teams in that lane placed 4, 5 and 6.  I agree with Nakedpaddler as to how we would have placed in a different lane as well!  And also yes, it was great racing all weekend!

Hmmm  to actually make it into the finals as you have then I guess we should do the same for the semis.  If that is the case then the diamond semi 1 had 3 of the fastest times in all of the semis (in "slow" boats at that).  So they should be in the platinum final since they beat most of the platinum teams.  Your comparison must make your team move from Jade (or lower) to Platinum (I am guessing) so it looks really good for you.  It is this type of miss use of information that allows governments to go to war and stay elected  :lol: :lol:...in other words it is a useless comparison, you can only look at the time in each race not across a 2.5 hour time period.

Quote from: rb on September 19, 2006, 04:34:21 PM
This is a theoretical "what if" based on times, and I know you can't do this and it doesn't really mean anything, and I apologize to those teams in the slow boat in the final because it makes it look like you should have been in 3 divisions lower than you were which isn't the case, but imagine if the seeding worked out like this and the races were actually this close, it would be nirvana. Humour us here.

For recreational purposes only:

Platinum A
2:16.59 Pacific Reach 1
2:18.82 Acme Canoe Club
2:19.09 Swordfish
2:20.29 River City Dragons
2:20.32 Fresh Off The Dragon Boat
2:20.53 Dragnum

Platinum B
2:21.33 RGL United
2:21.76 Red Devils
2:21.86 Eye of the Dragon
2:22.56 PowerBar Dragons
2:22.56 Sssteam Heat
2:22.56 Sudden Impact

Diamond A
2:23.23 Hot Sake
2:23.46 Dragon Hearts Team Ultimate
2:23.80 Strathcona's Dangerous When Wet
2:23.86 Just Dragon Along
2:23.86 Shaggin Dragons
2:24.03 Guardian Dragons

Diamond B
2:24.16 Pacific Reach 2
2:25.35 Splash Test Dragons
2:25.37 Synergy Team 1
2:25.53 TD Lightning
2:25.63 Ready Jet Go!
2:25.70 Team Lifescan
....

I'm glad that someone did this exercise as the first thing I noticed in many of the finals was the 10 second spread between 1st and last.  Obviously this speaks to the boat issue.  I also thinks it speaks to the formula used to advance teams into the semis, where a time calculation was made.  Clearly how it was made, I am unsure but 3 race officials mentioned this factor when explaining why our team with the 8th fastest time on Sat. was advanced to the Jade semis.

There were so many great things about this year's festival.  I commend the race organizers for their effort and attention to detail.  Despite our team's disappointment with the division we ended up in, we had a blast.  However, it is important to state that the reason we come is to race.  How the race day unfolds and how we are entertained throughout it are all factors in a pleasurable event but they are secondary to the battle we come to do.  We all want to win.  No boat sitting out on a start line before a race comes to lose.  When we win we celebrate.  When we don't we congratulate those who did, lick our wounds and get back in the boat at practice to improve what needs to be improved.  I mean no disrespect any teams or to the race organizers.  I simply want to state that the boat conditions and calculations for advancement set teams up less fairly than could have been done and prevented a more equal playing field on which to do battle.  I know the race orgainers will look at these issues and will make improvements for next year!

Many thanks to all the teams Sudden Impact raced.  It was truly an honour!  It was very cool to race teams from Kelowna and Alberta, teams we don't ordinarily have a chance to race against.  We look forward to more adventures in Kelowna next year!

The above posts point out the major flaw with using times exclusively to determine advancements.  Conditions change from race to race and with a favorable tail-wind the fastest time for the whole weekend wasn't the overall winner of Kelowna.  It was Sun-Rype. 

Placements are always the first thing a race official uses to determine advancements.  Two 1sts = 20 points, a 1st & 2nd = 17 points, 1st & 3rd = 15 points.  Two 2nds = 14.

Point System
1st Place – 10 points, 2nd Place – 7 points, 3rd Place – 5 points, 4th Place – 3 points, 5th Place – 1 point.
In the event that two or more teams finish the qualifying heats with the same number of points, the total cumulative race times of the tying teams will determine the placement of the teams.

Why this format works so well
• Times from previous races are not used for advancement, so water condition, current, weather and lane
assignment are irrelevant. (Except in the case of a tie)

I need some clarification here, so you're saying:
1. You're from Sudden Impact
2. Team ended up in Jade
3. Team ended up in Jade b/c the advancement system was faulty?

How did both heats of Saturday go for your team, did you win both your heats?
I see by the grid for the first race you were seeded to win.  Don't know about your second race though.  Did you win one and lose one?

I believe the time system doesn't use the actual time but rather the differential time between your boat and the average times of the boats in your heat. This does a good job of eliminating the differences due to wind, tide, etc.

In my opinion, the combination of points and differential times works very well. What happened in Kelowna is that boat 4 in the even heats for the seeding races was adding something like 6 seconds. It affected the time of anyone that raced in it, and in lots of cases the placement as well. No system can work with that.

The points and differential time system was used at Alcan along with thoughtful pre-seeding and ended up with extremely close races. In my opinion, the system works well but add a slow boat in the middle lane and of course it will cause teams to be in the wrong division. Look back at the amazingly close races at Alcan and let that be the goal to achieve at all festivals as far as getting the teams in the right divisions. In addition to the results below Rec A and Rec B also had the majority of boats crossing the line within 2 or 3 seconds. I say keep the pre-seeding effort high, keep the points and differential time system, and get even boats especially in the middle lanes and we'll have more fantastic races.


Competitive C Championship - Gemini  
02:07.11   Los Angeles Racing Dragons
02:07.64   RGL United
02:07.81   Eye of the Dragon
02:07.84   Synergy Yellow Submarine
02:08.28   Just Dragon Along
02:08.31   Strathcona DWW 2
02:08.34   San Francisco Dragon Warriors 2
02:08.61   Team STORM
02:09.58   Los Angeles Killer Guppies
 Â 
Competitive B Championship - Gemini    
02:03.90   San Francisco Dragon Warriors 1
02:04.51   Acme Canoe Club
02:04.99   Victoria Dragonauts
02:06.94   Capital Iron Dragons
02:07.44   Wasabi Mixed
02:07.84   Fresh Off the Dragonboat
02:08.08   Dragon Hearts Team Ultimate
02:08.41   Scotiabank Dragons
02:08.85   Pacific Reach 2
 Â 
Competitive A Championship - Gemini  
01:55.29   FCRCC Mixed 1
01:57.90   Gorging Dragons
01:58.66   Pacific Reach 1
01:59.80   Kai Ikaika
02:00.70   ROLI Canada
02:01.47   Pemberton Bald Eagles
02:01.87   FCRCC MIXED 2
02:02.77   Strathcona DWW 1
02:02.94   Laoyam Eagles

The big caveat with the points system is that in order for it to work well, the initial seeding of the teams in the preliminary heats needs to be fairly accurate. Unfortunately, there is a degree of subjectivity to it. Looking at the seeding of the first races on Saturday, IMO, I thot there were some heats that were weaker than others. Under the points system, a weaker team may advance to a higher semi heat than anticipated and vice versa, stronger teams facing each other earlier than anticipated, may end up in a weaker division.

Judging from some of the comments from some of the posters and looking at where teams placed when the dust settled, I can see where some teams might make a case that poor seeding may have hurt them.

I'm not on Sudden Impact so hopefully I'm unbiased, but I could just plain be wrong.

What happened IMO is that in the first race they had the questionable boat and were beat by RGL United by a boat length. I'm not taking anything away from RGL because they are for sure strong and fast and that would have been a good race had it been in equal boats.

The 2nd place team (Sudden Impact) then raced in a heat against a first place finisher from a different heat, being FODB in this case. Sudden Impact finished 2nd again.

Based on points they would have been out of Platinum for sure in either case, but because of the slow differential time in the first heat they ended up in Jade. Fast teams with two 2nds would probably end up in Diamond which would have been better. Bummer.

Again, this is just my opinion.

It sounds like everything worked out in the end:

A team won both heats on Saturday, they got Platinum.
Another team had 1st & 2nd on Saturday, they got Diamond.

Looking over the numbers, spots available etc, I don't think it's unreasonable to see a team placing 2nd and 2nd to place in Jade. 

As for Sudden's 1st race, it was a tough one b/c RGL is on the pace. 

To put some perspective on this, Kelowna is the 2nd biggest BC racing event.  I think it speaks to the depth of competition (which I frankly thought was awesome) that you have these tough races in your 'seeding' races, and should be welcomed.
(I sincerely hope there is no expectaction of easy wins on Saturdays)

My teams had to race against fast teams like Sudden Impact and Extreme Currents in our 'seeding' races (with the slimey boats btw).  Absolutely no complaints here.  Personally b/c I always welcome a tough race, and the opportunity to 'knock out' tough teams, that's racing!

Don't mean to burst a bubble but Sun-Rype was the "fastest boat in the Okanagan" as in; an Okanagan team boat. The fasted time of the whole weekend was Pac Reach with a 2:08 and change. I think that was in a non-scummy boat heat on Saturday, and yes they did end up as the overall winners. That fastest boat thing had a lot of us confused in the beer garden but I don't think we were processing as fast at that time. 8))

Talking about making sense out of the Saturday seadings there didn't seem to be much reason to it. From my rudimentary calculations of top 10 teams where each had 1st place fiinishs on Saturday it then seemed (from the race notes on each downloaded race grid) that it was now a case of overall times.

If this is the case how did the Red Devils with an overall time of 4:42... on Saturday get ranked 1st place over 2nd place ranked team Pac Reach with an overall time of 4:28. The only team that ended up with an overall time less than the 4:30 range from the first day and even they didn't get top ranking. Maybe they got some of that mysterious added time calculations.

You have to wonder if that team didn't get ranked top with their numbers how many others were so messed up :?

I don't think they take the time of the race by itself, but take the average difference from first and last or something like that to rank the teams after point. so if red devil has slow boats in it's heat that might be a reason why they are rank higher

Gottcha... not really, but it makes better sense than what I interpreted from the grid instructions. Maybe this ranking "system" could be better explained in the race rules and such teams can get from their site.

Guess we should put this in the suggestion box. Thanks for the post Confused! and add me to the list of confused :P

I think you are still messed up.  I think someone already stated that time was never added to a team's time.  I would suspect that the Red Devils were in the slower boats on Saturday and Pac Reach wasn't.

Guess I should have put the  :) after the comment about mysterious added time as it was a joke, sorry for messing up.

If I look over the handy-dandy race grid from the weekend and read my chicken scratch correctly, both Red Devils and Pac Reach each had a race in both the slower boats (even races) and the faster boats (odd number races). Actually as they both won their first races they raced in exactly the same boats (lane 4, M Channel) in their second races. Yes Pac Reach did get the faster time in the clean boats. Their first race was a more normal 2:20 in the slower boats as opposed to Red Devils first race in the slow boats at 2:25. Both dropped time in the second (faster boat) race but Pac Reach reduced 12 seconds vs. Red Devil dropping only 8ish.

If it was some obscure averaged time in each heat type deal then maybe yes, they got a better ranking. It seems odd to get a better ranking due to other boats in the heats being slower or faster overall for an average. Guess if anyone knows the real story behind the rankings it would end a lot of confusion, guessing and discussion here if they had just posted it for everyone to understand in the first place rather than suggest added times and other such ideas.

Regardless Pac Reach kicked my teams' butt and this weekend, everyone else's. Didn't look they just walked away with it without a challenge, as some suggested; they still had to fight for it. Thought Cruise Control Reunited would have given them a bit more of a fight in the final as they did in the semi. We'll see where we all stand come next season!

In some ways this method of ranking seems counterintuitive and it doesn't work in every case obviously. But I think it is probably the most fair. I am not sure of the exact formula but if you average the speeds and then calculate how much above the average PR and the Red Devils were, RD comes out on top. Even with a trimmed mean it's closer but RDs still comes out on top. It looks like PR just drew faster boats in there heats. This type of ranking helps to eliminate changes in weather or water conditions and even allows comparisons between heats in different types of boats (e.g. Alcan Gemini/6-16). I think its best to only compare absolute times when they are in the same race.

The race organizers do an amazing job, and what they are trying to do is rank teams that haven't actually raced against each other and of course there is no perfect system for that.

In this case it just meant PR got placed in a different lane, of course it would suck if your team got bumped down a division because of it.

Variable race conditions (inclusive of seeding and boat selection) are part of the sport. Coping with it is part of the sport too. Get over it.

'Sometimes you're the dog, and sometimes you're the hydrant'.