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Dragon Boat Canada


IDBF


Canoe Kayak Canada

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[Cashin]

I have to admit I was a bit surprised by which division some teams ended up in, but I guess the adjusting due to boats may explain it.  Our team (Dragnum aka HSBC Pure Energy from the Calgary Festival) put in a 2:16 in the morning and a 2:20 in the afternoon with a first and a second, but ended up in Diamond.  We ended up taking home some hardware (2nd) in Diamond, but I think we really should have been in platinum. 

Aside from the concern on the division placement I had a great time on the weekend, so overall good job on the race. 

[Dumber]

I overheard a couple of crusty dragon boaters talking about the boats and they said that the boats had been in an accident some years back and were now stuffed with Bondo etc.  Nothing to do with the boats being particularily dirty, but they are toast in terms of balance etc.

[lily]

Hey there:

This is my first post to DBW--howdy!

Aside from the dirty boats, does anyone know how many teams were affected by ridiculous wakes in Lane 6 caused by high speed leisure craft??? Our team took an extra long cruise to the finish line because of it and ended up in a much lower division in the finals on Sunday.

Were we the only ones? We were pretty choked and officials didn't seem to think anything of it when we protested. Is it far fetched to suggest a speed limit for rec boaters next year that stretches the 500m of the course from 8am to 4pm Sat/Sun??

[alcanranker]

At the end of the day it was cleaned along with the other Fraser Valley boat. These 2 boats were in lane 3 and 4 in the even heats on Satuday. For Sunday they moved them to lanes 1 and 6.

Funny how many experts we have who watch the boats.  Now if they only had the story correct, lane 4 was moved to lane 6, lane 3 was left in lane 3 (as far as I know, do we have a picture to confirm the move to lane 1) and strange enough it was doing okay on Sunday (look at the results of the ODD numbered heats in the morning).  Were the boats dirty, not really but they did pull them to check on them.  I was there  .

Next rumor please, just kidding.

Yes we all want fair races.  I have seen the comments about the whole lane 3 and 4.  I have also heard about lane 5 (funny how no one has mentioned this boat).  Yes there were some heavier boats out there.  If you look on Sunday's results the "management" seemed to have corrected fairly well as the middle lanes (technically the "fastest" teams) were consistent.

If you want fair equipment definitely ask the festival to provide fair equipment as much as possible but it will be tough to find 12 like 6/16s (or any other type boat) in Western Canada.

IMO

[Rossifumi]

So Water's Edge wasn't responsible for cleaning the boats, fair enough.  Kudos to them for electing to clean them up Saturday.  Although I don't think there's a single person who wouldn't mind if they took a few minutes to clean them up as soon as they found out they were dirty.

As far as fair races are concerned, it's perfectly ok to expect all boats to be cleaned properly.  And that'd be about the extent of it really.  Otherwise all you can hope for is event organizers doing their part to rent the best condition boats out there as possible.

[Lethal Weapon]

The boats in question (lane 4  and 5 ) were the Fraser Valley dragonboats. To my knowledge the boats are well cared for and maintained. I coach on these boats and have noted that the boats although solidly rebuilt (these are the poor ones that fell off the trailer last year coming home from Alcan) may have other issues. It is indeed unfortunate that a boat can cause issues with some teams but like life, one has to over come and adjust to what ever is thrown at you. In a perfect world there would be 12  or more brand new boats awaiting you at every race in BC but that is not a reality. We all breathed a collective sigh of releif when Barney was left at DZ but little did we know his country cousins Ethel and Hubert would be there. The womens teams used the same boats (I was also steering a womens boat) and they did not seem to have as many issues as the mixed teams. Based on my experiences with my teams (we have had Barney and cousins in a lot of races at Harrison and Alcan) the only way to move them is to up your rate and lenghtening your finish doesn't hurt. . Sucks thought if the boats burned you, been there, done that, but what are we to do? Water's edge did their job and while the jury is still out on what they are responsible for I believe in the end the race organizers should ensure when they rent boats that they are cleaned by the clubs beforehand.

My 2 cents

What so I know, I just take pictures!
 

[coach]

I agree that Water's Edge did a good job. I also agree that the slow boat should have been cleaned and moved to the outside lane as soon as it was known. I wouldn't object if I'd already raced in it, no sense making others suffer the same fate.

The finish line pictures do show a lot of solo boats crossing the line first, I was disappointed that the seeding didn't work out as well as it could have.

As for having 12 evenly matched boats, how about using six good 6/16s and then six good Milleniums from GO?  Water's Edge and GO may be rivals in organizing events but maybe pooling together would be in everyone's best interest.

[nakedpaddler]

well if I am reading correctly, we were in lane 6 for our final (Race 92) race and came in third....I was told that we were the only ones to actually place in that boat!  Imagine what would have happened if we actually had a "clean" or "better/faster" boat in our final.....great racing no matter what....

it is always good to be in a final that you are neck in neck with all of the other boats - which was not the case for us - we raced Sudden Impact in both the Semis and the Final....no comparison there...but we gave it a fight and came home with a medal none the less (Bronze in Jade).

thank you to "ALL" the organizers and volunteers for a wondyful weekend, I had a great time....as always.

[rb]

This is a theoretical "what if" based on times, and I know you can't do this and it doesn't really mean anything, and I apologize to those teams in the slow boat in the final because it makes it look like you should have been in 3 divisions lower than you were which isn't the case, but imagine if the seeding worked out like this and the races were actually this close, it would be nirvana. Humour us here.

For recreational purposes only:

Platinum A
2:16.59 Pacific Reach 1
2:18.82 Acme Canoe Club
2:19.09 Swordfish
2:20.29 River City Dragons
2:20.32 Fresh Off The Dragon Boat
2:20.53 Dragnum

Platinum B
2:21.33 RGL United
2:21.76 Red Devils
2:21.86 Eye of the Dragon
2:22.56 PowerBar Dragons
2:22.56 Sssteam Heat
2:22.56 Sudden Impact

Diamond A
2:23.23 Hot Sake
2:23.46 Dragon Hearts Team Ultimate
2:23.80 Strathcona's Dangerous When Wet
2:23.86 Just Dragon Along
2:23.86 Shaggin Dragons
2:24.03 Guardian Dragons

Diamond B
2:24.16 Pacific Reach 2
2:25.35 Splash Test Dragons
2:25.37 Synergy Team 1
2:25.53 TD Lightning
2:25.63 Ready Jet Go!
2:25.70 Team Lifescan

Jade A
2:25.83 Portland Fire Dragons
2:26.00 NAVY Dragon Anchors
2:26.15 Weekend Warriors
2:26.27 Fluid Motion
2:26.40 TCC Epson Dragoneers
2:26.70 Topmade Fusion

Jade B
2:26.78 Uncivil Serpents
2:27.20 Alpha Dragons
2:27.40 Crews Control Reunited
2:28.44 Blu By U
2:28.61 Hot Knots
2:28.74 Team Ruckus

Gold A
2:28.74 Team Uproar
2:29.27 Dragon Hearts Flying Dragons
2:29.27 Scotiabank Dragons
2:29.52 Spirit of a Renegade
2:29.68 Canucks Crew
2:29.87 Synergy Team 2

Gold B
2:29.90 Extreme Currents
2:30.04 Finding BMO
2:30.18 Phat Phish Racing
2:30.71 False Creek Granddragons
2:31.24 Wave Runners
2:31.31 Red Hot Chili Paddlers

Silver A
2:31.34 Chilliwack Thunderstrokers
2:31.51 Absolute Dragons
2:31.73 SFU Dragon Bytes
2:32.41 Scaly Justice
2:32.55 Uhuru
2:32.81 Raunchy Rodents

Silver B
2:33.13 BC BLT
2:33.58 CBC Wave Catchers
2:33.61 Starbucks Wave Runners
2:33.70 Red Fusion
2:33.75 Raging Dragons
2:33.79 Topmade Fusion B

Bronze A
2:34.12 Pirates
2:34.22 Team X-Calibre
2:34.42 Scotiabank Dragons II
2:34.58 Gift of Life
2:34.64 Drunk'n Dragons - Fully Loaded
2:34.81 Bear Paws

Bronze B
2:35.01 City of Kelowna Blazing Paddles
2:35.18 Team Phoenix
2:35.38 CNS Insurance RRRamming Speed
2:35.66 Team Sun-Rype-100% Juiced
2:36.16 Go Fish
2:36.21 Red Eyes Paddling Club

Emerald A
2:36.37 The Grand Poobahs
2:37.36 Sun Strokes
2:37.36 Vancity Thunder
2:37.79 Water Whisperers
2:38.38 Scotiabank Spitfires
2:38.85 Army Dragon Forces

Emerald B
2:39.05 Nothin Dragon Seniors
2:39.92 Riff Raft
2:40.02 Lift What's Draggin'
2:40.38 The Strength Within
2:41.02 Lotus Mixed
2:41.63 Richmond Centre Dragoneers

Pearl A
2:43.22 Scotia Scorchers
2:45.06 Alberni Wave Riders
2:46.56 Team CT Calgary Transit
2:46.73 Delta Flying Dragons
2:47.53 False Creek Granddragons Too
2:48.13 Ritchie Bros. Auctionauts

Pearl B
2:54.60 Sonar Dragons
2:57.27 The Eh Team

[Halifaxgirl]

Whoa!  Ok, I'd have to say that lane 6 totally sucked for the finals, especially in the Platnium A finals...ahem!  Putting the times that way, some teams even dropped 5 or 6 divisions!  I heard a comment that with all the pleasure craft closer to lane 6, the currents were against it, and perhaps the dirty boat business too.  Most teams in that lane placed 4, 5 and 6.  I agree with Nakedpaddler as to how we would have placed in a different lane as well!  And also yes, it was great racing all weekend!

[tiger]

This is a theoretical "what if" based on times, and I know you can't do this and it doesn't really mean anything, and I apologize to those teams in the slow boat in the final because it makes it look like you should have been in 3 divisions lower than you were which isn't the case, but imagine if the seeding worked out like this and the races were actually this close, it would be nirvana. Humour us here.

For recreational purposes only:

Platinum A
2:16.59 Pacific Reach 1
2:18.82 Acme Canoe Club
2:19.09 Swordfish
2:20.29 River City Dragons
2:20.32 Fresh Off The Dragon Boat
2:20.53 Dragnum

Platinum B
2:21.33 RGL United
2:21.76 Red Devils
2:21.86 Eye of the Dragon
2:22.56 PowerBar Dragons
2:22.56 Sssteam Heat
2:22.56 Sudden Impact

Diamond A
2:23.23 Hot Sake
2:23.46 Dragon Hearts Team Ultimate
2:23.80 Strathcona's Dangerous When Wet
2:23.86 Just Dragon Along
2:23.86 Shaggin Dragons
2:24.03 Guardian Dragons

Diamond B
2:24.16 Pacific Reach 2
2:25.35 Splash Test Dragons
2:25.37 Synergy Team 1
2:25.53 TD Lightning
2:25.63 Ready Jet Go!
2:25.70 Team Lifescan
....

Hmmm  to actually make it into the finals as you have then I guess we should do the same for the semis.  If that is the case then the diamond semi 1 had 3 of the fastest times in all of the semis (in "slow" boats at that).  So they should be in the platinum final since they beat most of the platinum teams.  Your comparison must make your team move from Jade (or lower) to Platinum (I am guessing) so it looks really good for you.  It is this type of miss use of information that allows governments to go to war and stay elected  ...in other words it is a useless comparison, you can only look at the time in each race not across a 2.5 hour time period.

[mustbecrazy]

Quote from: rb on September 19, 2006, 04:34:21 PM
This is a theoretical "what if" based on times, and I know you can't do this and it doesn't really mean anything, and I apologize to those teams in the slow boat in the final because it makes it look like you should have been in 3 divisions lower than you were which isn't the case, but imagine if the seeding worked out like this and the races were actually this close, it would be nirvana. Humour us here.

For recreational purposes only:

Platinum A
2:16.59 Pacific Reach 1
2:18.82 Acme Canoe Club
2:19.09 Swordfish
2:20.29 River City Dragons
2:20.32 Fresh Off The Dragon Boat
2:20.53 Dragnum

Platinum B
2:21.33 RGL United
2:21.76 Red Devils
2:21.86 Eye of the Dragon
2:22.56 PowerBar Dragons
2:22.56 Sssteam Heat
2:22.56 Sudden Impact

Diamond A
2:23.23 Hot Sake
2:23.46 Dragon Hearts Team Ultimate
2:23.80 Strathcona's Dangerous When Wet
2:23.86 Just Dragon Along
2:23.86 Shaggin Dragons
2:24.03 Guardian Dragons

Diamond B
2:24.16 Pacific Reach 2
2:25.35 Splash Test Dragons
2:25.37 Synergy Team 1
2:25.53 TD Lightning
2:25.63 Ready Jet Go!
2:25.70 Team Lifescan
....

I'm glad that someone did this exercise as the first thing I noticed in many of the finals was the 10 second spread between 1st and last.  Obviously this speaks to the boat issue.  I also thinks it speaks to the formula used to advance teams into the semis, where a time calculation was made.  Clearly how it was made, I am unsure but 3 race officials mentioned this factor when explaining why our team with the 8th fastest time on Sat. was advanced to the Jade semis.

There were so many great things about this year's festival.  I commend the race organizers for their effort and attention to detail.  Despite our team's disappointment with the division we ended up in, we had a blast.  However, it is important to state that the reason we come is to race.  How the race day unfolds and how we are entertained throughout it are all factors in a pleasurable event but they are secondary to the battle we come to do.  We all want to win.  No boat sitting out on a start line before a race comes to lose.  When we win we celebrate.  When we don't we congratulate those who did, lick our wounds and get back in the boat at practice to improve what needs to be improved.  I mean no disrespect any teams or to the race organizers.  I simply want to state that the boat conditions and calculations for advancement set teams up less fairly than could have been done and prevented a more equal playing field on which to do battle.  I know the race orgainers will look at these issues and will make improvements for next year!

Many thanks to all the teams Sudden Impact raced.  It was truly an honour!  It was very cool to race teams from Kelowna and Alberta, teams we don't ordinarily have a chance to race against.  We look forward to more adventures in Kelowna next year!

[KarenRobertsPDX]

The above posts point out the major flaw with using times exclusively to determine advancements.  Conditions change from race to race and with a favorable tail-wind the fastest time for the whole weekend wasn't the overall winner of Kelowna.  It was Sun-Rype. 

Placements are always the first thing a race official uses to determine advancements.  Two 1sts = 20 points, a 1st & 2nd = 17 points, 1st & 3rd = 15 points.  Two 2nds = 14.

Point System
1st Place – 10 points, 2nd Place – 7 points, 3rd Place – 5 points, 4th Place – 3 points, 5th Place – 1 point.
In the event that two or more teams finish the qualifying heats with the same number of points, the total cumulative race times of the tying teams will determine the placement of the teams.

Why this format works so well
• Times from previous races are not used for advancement, so water condition, current, weather and lane
assignment are irrelevant. (Except in the case of a tie)

[Rossifumi]

Quote from: rb on September 19, 2006, 04:34:21 PM
This is a theoretical "what if" based on times, and I know you can't do this and it doesn't really mean anything, and I apologize to those teams in the slow boat in the final because it makes it look like you should have been in 3 divisions lower than you were which isn't the case, but imagine if the seeding worked out like this and the races were actually this close, it would be nirvana. Humour us here.

For recreational purposes only:

Platinum A
2:16.59 Pacific Reach 1
2:18.82 Acme Canoe Club
2:19.09 Swordfish
2:20.29 River City Dragons
2:20.32 Fresh Off The Dragon Boat
2:20.53 Dragnum

Platinum B
2:21.33 RGL United
2:21.76 Red Devils
2:21.86 Eye of the Dragon
2:22.56 PowerBar Dragons
2:22.56 Sssteam Heat
2:22.56 Sudden Impact

Diamond A
2:23.23 Hot Sake
2:23.46 Dragon Hearts Team Ultimate
2:23.80 Strathcona's Dangerous When Wet
2:23.86 Just Dragon Along
2:23.86 Shaggin Dragons
2:24.03 Guardian Dragons

Diamond B
2:24.16 Pacific Reach 2
2:25.35 Splash Test Dragons
2:25.37 Synergy Team 1
2:25.53 TD Lightning
2:25.63 Ready Jet Go!
2:25.70 Team Lifescan
....

I'm glad that someone did this exercise as the first thing I noticed in many of the finals was the 10 second spread between 1st and last.  Obviously this speaks to the boat issue.  I also thinks it speaks to the formula used to advance teams into the semis, where a time calculation was made.  Clearly how it was made, I am unsure but 3 race officials mentioned this factor when explaining why our team with the 8th fastest time on Sat. was advanced to the Jade semis.

There were so many great things about this year's festival.  I commend the race organizers for their effort and attention to detail.  Despite our team's disappointment with the division we ended up in, we had a blast.  However, it is important to state that the reason we come is to race.  How the race day unfolds and how we are entertained throughout it are all factors in a pleasurable event but they are secondary to the battle we come to do.  We all want to win.  No boat sitting out on a start line before a race comes to lose.  When we win we celebrate.  When we don't we congratulate those who did, lick our wounds and get back in the boat at practice to improve what needs to be improved.  I mean no disrespect any teams or to the race organizers.  I simply want to state that the boat conditions and calculations for advancement set teams up less fairly than could have been done and prevented a more equal playing field on which to do battle.  I know the race orgainers will look at these issues and will make improvements for next year!

Many thanks to all the teams Sudden Impact raced.  It was truly an honour!  It was very cool to race teams from Kelowna and Alberta, teams we don't ordinarily have a chance to race against.  We look forward to more adventures in Kelowna next year!

I need some clarification here, so you're saying:
1. You're from Sudden Impact
2. Team ended up in Jade
3. Team ended up in Jade b/c the advancement system was faulty?

How did both heats of Saturday go for your team, did you win both your heats?
I see by the grid for the first race you were seeded to win.  Don't know about your second race though.  Did you win one and lose one?

[rb]

I believe the time system doesn't use the actual time but rather the differential time between your boat and the average times of the boats in your heat. This does a good job of eliminating the differences due to wind, tide, etc.

In my opinion, the combination of points and differential times works very well. What happened in Kelowna is that boat 4 in the even heats for the seeding races was adding something like 6 seconds. It affected the time of anyone that raced in it, and in lots of cases the placement as well. No system can work with that.

The points and differential time system was used at Alcan along with thoughtful pre-seeding and ended up with extremely close races. In my opinion, the system works well but add a slow boat in the middle lane and of course it will cause teams to be in the wrong division. Look back at the amazingly close races at Alcan and let that be the goal to achieve at all festivals as far as getting the teams in the right divisions. In addition to the results below Rec A and Rec B also had the majority of boats crossing the line within 2 or 3 seconds. I say keep the pre-seeding effort high, keep the points and differential time system, and get even boats especially in the middle lanes and we'll have more fantastic races.


Competitive C Championship - Gemini  
02:07.11   Los Angeles Racing Dragons
02:07.64   RGL United
02:07.81   Eye of the Dragon
02:07.84   Synergy Yellow Submarine
02:08.28   Just Dragon Along
02:08.31   Strathcona DWW 2
02:08.34   San Francisco Dragon Warriors 2
02:08.61   Team STORM
02:09.58   Los Angeles Killer Guppies
 Â 
Competitive B Championship - Gemini    
02:03.90   San Francisco Dragon Warriors 1
02:04.51   Acme Canoe Club
02:04.99   Victoria Dragonauts
02:06.94   Capital Iron Dragons
02:07.44   Wasabi Mixed
02:07.84   Fresh Off the Dragonboat
02:08.08   Dragon Hearts Team Ultimate
02:08.41   Scotiabank Dragons
02:08.85   Pacific Reach 2
 Â 
Competitive A Championship - Gemini  
01:55.29   FCRCC Mixed 1
01:57.90   Gorging Dragons
01:58.66   Pacific Reach 1
01:59.80   Kai Ikaika
02:00.70   ROLI Canada
02:01.47   Pemberton Bald Eagles
02:01.87   FCRCC MIXED 2
02:02.77   Strathcona DWW 1
02:02.94   Laoyam Eagles