Dragon Boat West

I've been away too long, just got back and realized White Rock is coming up soon. 

Who's going?

Who's going to smoke them and who's not? 

Anyone in the know want to share?

team

1. a group of people forming one side in a sports competition

2. a number of people organized to function cooperatively as a group

Has FCRCC finally put together their roster?  I heard they're still looking for the best of the best.  No doubt they'll clean up at every festival this year (if they use their fly in's), but I don't consider them a 'team'.  A group of paddlers maybe, but not a team.  Looks like other top notch teams are going the same path as FCRCC this year as 'teams' get ready for Toronto.  Alot of new faces on the top crews this year.  To bad so sad for those that didn't make the cut, maybe they should all get together and form a new team.

Hey paddleboy why did you switch teams?????  Did you get too big for your spandex on PR????

Such rhetorical questions Mr. Secret Weapon.......why don't you take a closer look at your definition of "TEAM" in particular # 2.
Must be a bit of jealousy....perhaps wanting to share the spandex on PR with him????

Back on Topic....
I believe from what I have heard.....False Creek Mix is going,  Pacific Reach, Roli Masters, DWW(not sure if DWW (A and B are going)...and a few others....it's been pretty quiet on the creek these days....not much gossip...or I'm slowly fading away.
Should be an interesting event.....if the winds stay calm.  Should be a good fight with FCRCC Mix on top. 

Just my predicition to help you out a bit Mr. Tigger

1st - FCRCC
2nd- Pac Reach
3rd- Roli
4th- Subaru
5th- Swordfish

These are my placings if all of the above teams are entered.  I haven't seen any confirmations yet.

I have heard that Pac Reach and Swordfish are not going, guess we need the list of teams then we can start slinging the mud around  :shock:

Anyone have the list of teams, anyone listening?

WHITE ROCK TEAMS:

(2 more spots are available)

Abreast - Deas Divas
Abreast In Barnet
Abreast In The Cove
Abreast on the Creek
Abreast with FORT-itude
Alpha Dragons (junior)
Chicks Ahoy
City of White Rock
Concord Pacific Flying Dragons
Delta Dragonflies
Dogwood Nothin' Dragon Seniors
Dragonauts
Dragonhearts Team Ultimate
Drunk'n Dragons Fully Loaded
Drunk'n Dragons Half Cut
DWW
Elephant & Castle Booze Cruise
FCRCC Mixed
FLCC WOW (Women on Water)Ft Langley
False Creek Grandragons
False Creek Grandragons Too
False Creek Women
Fluid Motion
Fresh Off The Dragonboat
Gift of Life
INSINK
Phat Phish Racing
Pirates
RGL United
ROLI CANADA
STM Red Knights
STM White Knights
Strathcona's Dangerous When Wet
TD Lightning
The EH Team

Swordfish ain't going but there are a couple of us being pimped out as usual :)

 I saw the light .............. :shock: msn(#)

   I have been informed I have become a paddlesl*t ........ since 1 team isn't enough for me I have joined 2 teams heading for the worlds ........see you in white rock

 :?:
 :wtf:

:silenced:

I wouldn't really say delete... more like moved and created an even bigger mess. See here (http://www.dragonboatwest.net/forum/index.php?topic=3307.0)

Please keep this thread on topic with discussions on the White Rock races... and with that I'll add my two cents

Top Five in no particular order...

• FCRCC Mixed
• ROLI CANADA
• Strathcona's Dangerous When Wet or DWW
• Dragonhearts Team Ultimate
• Dragonauts

Now that we know who's going here is my new list of the winners

1.  FCRCC 'A' boat
2.  FCRCC 'B' boat
3.  Dragonauts
4.  DWW
5.  Roli

and here is the race grind for this weekend  http://alexlangley.com/WhiteRockGrid.pdf (http://alexlangley.com/WhiteRockGrid.pdf)

Hmmm, being the first event of the year and not seeing teams as much this year, I'll take a shot:

1.  FCRCC Mixed 1
2.  DWW
3.  Roli
4.  FCRCC Mixed 2
5.  Dragonhearts
6.  Dragonauts is an unknown, is this Koi + additional paddlers or what?

I think between 2nd and 6th is a wash, who is more comfortable with a 250m.  250m is a race won on the start just not enough time to make up room if you miss the start.  In addition, who has their team showing up.  I hear most of the teams are not necessari;y using all of their "Alcan" paddlers.  We shall see.

Wish I was going to be there :-(

I rub the all-seeing smelly garbage can, and here is what I smell:

1) FCRCC 2
2) FCRCC 1
3) DWW
4) ROLI
5) Ultimate

Dragonauts could be up there, but it really depends on who they bring over.  In fact, there could be many surprises.  All for fun right.  It's a charity event.  Surf's up!

The Dragonauts are in a rebuilding year, and are quite weak.  From watching them practice, they are trying  a new start that looks ridiculous.  In a 250, they'll be lucky to crack the top 10...

Vicpad... whats up? You scared? You're a GD aren't yeah? Why have you been watching the Dragonauts?

Used to be a rec team but no longer...  Thanks to their mean coach, they've made huge improvement over the off season.   :lol:

we won our race!   ....against no one....   :lol: 

interesting weather and interesting day.  I'm not entirely sure what happened with the boat that submerged, as we were heading out to the start-line when it happened, but i heard someone saying something about someone being taken away in an ambulance.  I hope everyone's alright.  those were some crazy waves out there. 

The team that took on water was the Delta Dragonflies.  From what they(race officials) said everyone was shaken, but OK.

yup, crazy weather, crazy waves, and crazy tide!  The tide was going out so fast, there may not have been any water around the dock to launch the boats!

After race 5, the steers for Drunk'n Dragons had to jump out of their boat, and push the boat back into deeper water.

yeah, i noticed a few teams beached their boats after the race.  don't think everyone got the message about heading to the right of the green buoy marker, combined with the tide.

Low tide was an understatement!
That has got to be the crappiest weather I ever had to shoot in!
Kudos to the staff of Waters Edge who acted quickly when the Dragonflies sunk their DB in the waves!
Here is a snap shot of the replacement of the newe Geminis....The ultimate Retrofit! LOL

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b79/Lethal_Weapon/WhiteRock2006/sunkdbLarge.jpg)

Seriously it was good no one was badly  injured after mishap. Managed to snap off a few shots of the mishap plu sthe lucky team who managed to get a race in!
Enjoy!
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b79/Lethal_Weapon/WhiteRock2006/dheartsLarge.jpg)
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b79/Lethal_Weapon/WhiteRock2006/pphish1Large.jpg)
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b79/Lethal_Weapon/WhiteRock2006/mickeyrockLarge.jpg)
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b79/Lethal_Weapon/WhiteRock2006/floater11Large.jpg)
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b79/Lethal_Weapon/WhiteRock2006/floater3Large.jpg)

and some more.....Got to get me a waterproof lens cover.....

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b79/Lethal_Weapon/WhiteRock2006/race1Large.jpg)
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b79/Lethal_Weapon/WhiteRock2006/86BB1120Large.jpg)
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b79/Lethal_Weapon/WhiteRock2006/fcrcc1Large.jpg)
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b79/Lethal_Weapon/WhiteRock2006/drunks2.jpg)
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b79/Lethal_Weapon/WhiteRock2006/fm4Large.jpg)

Once again ,thanks for some great photos,, We saw the boat going down on our way out too , then a sail boat came bearing down towards us ! We held the boat and luckily the sail boat turned away at the last minite , Hmm i wonder at what point he saw our little dragon boats??. Yes the conditions were tough, and good seat planning became essential, We went out with a crew of 20 and returned with 21! yes!! on returning to the pier we had a fish swimming along the inside of our boat, one of those waves must have swept it in , pity it wasn`t big enough to feed us all , Sad that it had to be cancelled, but indeed was a right one, now we have some extra money to find another regatta,, hmm Harrison is looking good now..

great pics lethal. at least they were smiling when they sank.  :lol:

those photos make the water look so calm....  haha

I heard that the Dragon Boat mishap made the news this morning - did anyone see it?  THey were interviewing some of the team members that went in the drink.  Just curious to see what they had to say about it.

"I'm really wet" -- capsized dragon boat paddler

Yea I saw the news on Global TV. They just had 1 woman interviewed when I saw the clip at about 9am I think. And basically she didn't say much about how or what happened and yes she said with a smile she was cold.

Safety is most definitely always first for any organizers really. And the weather is something that can not be controlled so the right choice was made. Too bad though because it would have meant the kick off to a season of racing for 2006.

But there will be more races to come and really quickly too!

Maybe these werent the best boats to use? These 616's dont seem very safe. Those didnt look like huge waves. They have no front pointy part? Did the boat sink to the bottom? I don't feel very safe paddling in them. Are the boats certified? Is it just me but are dragon boats that unsafe they cant handle some waves? We use Milleniums, I have never heard of them EVER having a problem. I heard a Gemini flipped in Victoria some time ago. I feel like Im taking crazy pills, am I the only one who feels safety is important? Why are we risking lives? One death and this sport is over.

Whoooaaa! Easy there! Maybe you should change the pills you are taking. All boats, in my opinion, would have resulted in the same predicament. There were swells. I will assume you were there in Whiterock like I was. I did not actualy see the moments immediately before the boat sank but when you get swells the boat's front end kind of dives into the water. When that happens the water will get in overtop of the boat. It will weigh the boat down. Then people who are paddling will continue to paddle because its what we do. Don't stop until you cross the finish line. Anyway then there are some people who will stop paddling and scream because they are getting more wet than usual. It doesn't matter really on who did what or when. There were large swells and the boat will go into a rocking motion from front to back or back to front and eventually dive head first into the last swell when the next one comes from behind. So boat designs are not what caused the unfortunate incident. I am not going to comment on anything like equal weight distribution on the boat ie: bow or stern heavy? But that could also be things that can contribute to crews causing their boats to sink or roll over.

from the wording of his post, it sounds like he wasn't there at all....  agreed that ANY design of dragonboat could have had the same thing happen.  the water conditions were far from ideal.  when turning around the point to line up at the starting line, if you were hit by some of the waves that were coming in at that time and people were leaning out too much, i have no doubt that the boat would have rolled onto its side. 
the team i was paddling with was staging right after the race where the boat went down, and even while suspended on the tops of waves, the wave tips were still coming up higher than the side of the boat.  we had people bailing pretty much non-stop and there was STILL about 4" of water in the bottom when we docked.  I wouldn't expect people to bail during the race, and that could have been another part of why they went under. 

*edit*  btw, the boats weren't 6-16s.

 SHE actually, all I am saying is there is nothing up front. It has no regular front like other boats. Perhaps some of these boats need to address safety and this may have been a good push to address the issue. Any lay person could easily see that one missplaced wave could go over the front. All the other points you provide are secondary, once the front dives instead of ride the wave its game over. A 616 cannot ride the wave it will dive. With that many people on board isn't safety the paramout thought? Maybe 616's should be flat water boats only. All I am saying is safety has gone to the wayside in the sport and seemingly in the manufactures eyes as well. They are mostly build by backyard entrepreneurs hoping it is right, I dont like being asked to risk my life on a GUESS. I heard the Milleniums were built by the same people who build Zodiac boats. Why aren't they used more? If they were not 616s what were they? They sure looked like it. The problem will also arise once the boat is beneath the water it should have sufficient floatation to support the team until rescue, the boat dissapeared. My point, wich you boys are missing, is that there are no safety guidlines set out by a governing body, and don't hand me the IDBF line, they have no regulation on safety only on length and width and such.
 In my opinion the boats were a problem, you are entitled to your opinion this is mine. So thanks I will stick to my medication, you may go on blissfully unaware of the danger beneath you. ENJOY!

No, the boats were D2s which, from the information I have, are essentially 6-16s that have been gutted and refitted into their current configuration.

As Colossus and others have said, this could have happened with any boat type.  A Millenium boat may have been slightly more bouyant in this situation because the center beam has a foam core, but it still would have swamped in these circumstances and may have even capsized because the water would have been prevented from equalizing between the two sides of the boat by the solid center beam.

The boat at White Rock didn't sink to the bottom.  The bouyancy chambers under the drummer and steering station prevented that, but there isn't enough space in a dragon boat to build in enough bouyancy to counteract the weight of 22 paddlers and however many litres of water it takes to fill one.


Perhaps you should take a good look at the 6-16 / D2 boat the next time you are near one.  There is a solid bulkhead about 2 feet back from the bow of the boat with the same design at the stern.  The problem wasn't water coming over the bow, the wave that swamped the boat came over the side.


Neither the 6-16 boats nor the Millenium boats meet IDBF standards, so it's likely that you will be seeing more of the Geminis, BuKs, and other standard boats on the water rather than any increase in the use of Millenium boats.

As for the Millenium boats - I've watched steerspeople get tossed out of the boats in the Nanaimo races.  I'm not a big fan of them as I cannot properly brace myself at the steersperson's position with that solid center beam.


Safety is paramount.  That is why PFDs are required to be worn when you are racing.  That's why there were two race marshal boats on the water.  That's why the organizers called the races.  Some times things happen that are outside of your control. 

The organizers have a responsibility to ensure they provide a safe event.  The teams have a responsibility to ensure they participate in a safe manner.  We all have our role to play in making dragon boatins a safe sport.

StraightLine.

Well said Straightline!! Kudos!!

I agree that whatever dragonboat you put in the situation we had on Saturday, the result would have been the same.  Dragonboats, be it 616, Gemini, D2 (what is used in White Rock), Millenium, BUKs - they aren't meant to plough through rough water or high chop.  They are racing boats.  It's like trying to have an indy car race in an off-road rally track.  As a steersperson, I for one would not like to steer a Millenium through those waters due to the lack of space in the back for foot placement.  Gemini's are too streamlined and aren't wide enough at the bottom.  616s and the D2s are probably best if given a choice.

Had we better conditions, and some sun, it would have been a great day.  Races were fairly on time, and everyone was in good spirits.  Props to Water's Edge for that.  I think the organizers should re-think the venue, though, as the conditions we had on Saturday seem to be the norm at this time of year in White Rock.

thanks for the clarification on the differences straightline, i knew they were similar, just didnt' know exacts, and very well put with the rest.

This is funny...no one hear of the "Titanic" - not  supposed to sink my butt...

It's a water sport what do you expect.  How often does this happen?  Safety, hmmm did you not know you were getting in a boat?  sign the waiver, put on your pfd (make sure it is zipped and tight) and get out there or if you think that it is unsafe then just don't do it. 

Can't swim?  how many people on your boat can't swim?  Do you know who they are?  This is one thing I find quite amuzing....you should be aware of the people who 'can't swim' or 'sink'......

It is very unlikely that the boat is going to sink - but considering the circumstances that was a totally different story. 

The racing was called off for good reason, now I am just wondering if that ladies boat didn't get swamped if the racing would have continued?  oh right, the tide was going out so fast that there wouldn't have been any water to paddle in.  (this side of the breakwater....)

Kudos to everyone that was out on the water on Saturday, it is too bad about Mother Nature.

Let me slkow it down so you can follow.
-There is no safety regulating body and the boats are built in peoples back yards.
-You admitted that Milenniums have better floatation, thanks for the amunition
-You also admitted they are reconfigured 616s
-Like turning a Hyundai into an indy car right?
-Then how are they safe?
- The problem arises once the boat is under. The reconfigured 616s have worn out floatation under the seats and d2s have a little bit under the bow and the stern. These are the mainstay 'race' boats in the majority of the races.
Thanks for your input on steering however we weren't discussing it?  
All I was trying to put out there was the need for increased safety measures with regard to the hulls. But thank you for the lessons on all the different boats. It just renforces the point that they are all different with little regard to safety. I for one would rather have the millenniums boat style bow to ride the waves so water over the fron does not compound water from the sides.
I no longer wish to debate the topic. Thanks fellas. You make this site so enjoyable to bring up points, I know someone agrees with me out there.


Thanks 'naked paddler, not addressing safety in a water sport is great idea. Shall I forward the coroners reports?
Great attitude, next time please dont wear your jacket, dont zip it up and please be drunk while doing all this.

oh dear, shoot me now...  i've resorted to pressing the "boo".  :lol:

ms. paddling is life, you need to look outside your very narrow point of view for just a few seconds to realize what people are saying here. 

I'm with you...  boo..boo...boo

Oh well... at least there's activity on the forums again...

Paddling, even though you do not wish to debate this further I just want to point out some counter-points. In terms of a safety regulating body for dragonboat, I think it would really help if it's actually recognized as a sport first. Currently there are still arguments as to where this activity fits into... is it a canoe sport? Or is it its own sport? There are more than enough bar room brawls (slight exaggeration) about who should be regulating the activity, the International Canoe Federation or International Dragon Boat Federation...

I do agree that the Millennium boats are better floaters but, like what Straightline said, considering how the left and right sides are sealed from each other, I don't think they would have faired any better if they were used at White Rock. I think they would've actually been worse as they would be off balance making it hard to maneuver and most likely start leaning as the two sides filled with water unevenly. Worst case would be that it takes a wave on the side and flip over rather than just swamp. Hypothetically… if Millenniums were used at the event and they did go over, we would have a buoyant upside-down heavy plastic boat being tossed around by the waves in a crowd of shocked, maybe even panicking paddlers… At least with the swamping, the boat wasn’t really at head-level with anyone on that women’s team.

I don’t understand how you can just brush off the issue of steering in a debate about safety. Safety-wise and speaking from experience, I would be more concerned about an out of control boat than of a sinking one.

Also, if we're calling things out, it should be noted that the Millennium’s hull design was actually stolen off of the 6-16s, so if it wasn’t for these boats being built in someone’s backyard there would be no Millenniums.

Paddling, I applaud you for your concern in safety; however, I do not see the fault in the boats for this event. Plain and simple, the conditions were not “ideal� for the event and any of the boats/hull designs would have seen the same fate… Some probably would fair better but the choice of the D2 was probably the best choice. A Gemini/BuK probably would’ve lasted two races. Based on the teams that were part of the event, I would say that, other than a handful of teams, most of them did not know what they were getting themselves into. Most teams practice on rather flat water and never experienced anything like what White Rock offers. If they are going to keep the event at the same venue, it should be advertised as that. It is definitely a race geared towards a more experienced race field.


Now now… that’s not very nice…
 

You know what...  I agree with Paddling is Life.  Let's make this sport safe. 

Let's all paddle in 50-foot barges. 

LOL...I'll steer.

no, i think you should keep them if there are any.  your world seems to revolve around that sort of thing.

"Why are we risking lives? One death and this sport is over."   wow, someone is a little paranoid huh?  if anyone feels unsafe paddling, i suggest finding a new sport.    perhaps playing ultimate?   then again, one can hit a tree or parked car while running for the disc so that can be pretty dangerous as well  :?

Ms. Paddling,

I think you are missing one very important point about any paddling sport... BOATS SINK... be it a kayak, a flatwater canoe, an outrigger or a rowing skull.  The safety aspect of the boat is not that it doesn't sink... all boats will even life boats will sink given rough enough conditions just ask BC Ferries, but it is rather how a boat sinks. 

In this case the boat did it's job and the outcome given the conditions was as safe as possible...

If we look at how the boat reacted when hit on the side with a wave the hull filled with water and distributed the additional weight from the water evenly and submerged in a controlled manner.  Now for a quick physics lesson... any boat that takes on water will increase it's water displacement as it is heavier, this results in a reduction in the buoyancy of the boat and freeboard.  The reduction in freeboard allowed additional water to come in and resulted in the boat loosing additional buoyancy until becoming fully submerged. 

Now kudos should go out to the boat designers as the boat remained upright until it achieved neutral buoyancy (was fully submerged) meaning that the boat didn't flip creating a real danger of trapping people under the boat or even hitting them as the boat rolled... unconscious people in the water NOT good.

If you look closely at the pictures you will see that the boat did not capsized at any point and that once weight was equalized in the boat (Picture with only 4 or 5 people left in the boat) the nose started to resurface which suggests to that someone has done a hell of a job calculating the size of the sealed bulkheads.

Now the idea that a different boat would be better here are some possible alternatives:

• Controlled sinking of the D2 Boat, 6-16 likely a similar scenario given the hull designs, no big deal.
• Millennium boat = right/left compartments... Likely would roll tossing paddler from the boat and possibly trapping people under it... and if you have ever hulied you know how fast it happens so beyond anything else there would be the shock factor.
• BuK or a Gem though the sinking would be more controlled because of the open compartment I would think that the reaction to the weight shift in the boat would be more dramatic resulting in a similar situation where the boat would roll.  Like they wouldn't sink because of the sealed hull but you're never going to right one.

     

Though it is great to say that we need safety standards in Dragon boating I think you are sadly mistaken if you think that the sport is without them... Certification of Life jackets is the primary safety standard... that's why it is required to be a coast guard approved PFD.  Government testing on boats happens individually and is a test of sea worthiness not will it sink or not. 

Now for the argument that a sealed nose capsule would have prevented the problem... you can't be serious, the design of the boat has a bulkhead just in from the fixture for the dragon head... so yes it would allow water into the front of the boat... but I doubt even enough to make the boat nose heavy.

Sooo that being said and to keep Ms. Paddling happy and to prevent this from happening again I say we start a petition to make Water's Edge Design manufacture and implement the first ever Dragon Boat Spray skirt so we can learn to ride the waves just like an outrigger  :lol: 

Hats off to Water's Edge for making the right call... even though they would have been a boat short for every second race if they decided to continue. 

Finally to those who are worried that the world of dragon boating is not governed by adequate safety regulations... if you are that worried about it I suggest you stay on dry land and while you're at it not drive or cross the street you're much more likely to get killed doing that.

at least they didn't sink in false creek water..

w3rd :?

good call.  that would be ****ty  :lol: 8)

Can you actually call it water???


Litterally and figuratively

exactly