[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

 

Dragon Boat Canada


IDBF


Canoe Kayak Canada

204 Guests, 0 Users

[puppy]

Hi everyone,

With the recent lost of our fleet of Outriggers at Dragon Zone in Vancouver, we are asking the community for your feedback, opinion and guidance.  Because the community is built and supported by all of your efforts, we are asking what type of outriggers you think, we should consider looking at purchasing.  We will look at your responses and what is the "best" options for the club.

Please let us know:
     a) what Outrigger manufacture you would like? and why?
     b) What type (s) OC1, OC2, OC6? How many?
     c) Other types of options you would like to see in the outrigger? (i.e.: reversible alma?, more outrigger club paddles?)
     d) Any outrigger manufactures which we should not consider? why?
     e) Types of paddles you would like to see us get?
     f)  Any other comments/thoughts....

Thanks
 

[puppy]

here is my choice....Kai Wa’a – Hawaiian Ocean Canoes was founded by champion paddler Kai Bartlett who has been building canoes in Hawaii for over 17 years. After working for other canoe manufactures and finding a love for the sport of Outrigger Canoeing Kai decided to design and manufacture his own canoes in search of a canoe to the exact specifications he desired. As Kai began to realize what worked well and what didn’t in canoes, he also became a world renowned paddler claiming 5 Molokai World Championships Solo canoe paddling titles as well as 3 Molokai Hoe Victories with Lanikai Canoe Club. Currently Kai lives on Maui where he is constantly tweaking designs to have the very best canoe design on the market. Kai also paddles with Hawaiis top team known as Team Primo who have been undefeated on the Hawaii racing circuit for 3 years and counting.  Just need to find out if they can create a club boat, which can handle the wear and tear.

Also wouldn't mind an oc1 trolly, so people don't need to carry the boats up and down....

More steering blades

[leeli]

1. http://www.huki.com/index.php?page=Dragonboat_Bargains
    Huki that can rig on either sides, assumed is not built to race and more for training, hence, durable.

2. Yes to more steering blades and OC6 storage canvases/protector? don't know the exact name for it.

[Wet spot]

Puppy, suggest that you also consult with other clubs,namely FCRCC and Jericho et al...they have a lot of combined experience and many of their club members have their own personal boats.

I suggest that whatever you get should be suitable for both flat water and open water use....unless the boats are being used exclusively within the confines of False Creek.

[Creature]

The main point of my reply ....

We're going to beat the crap out of them so if there is a "Club" version layup of whatever OC1 boats you're considering, get it. 

My perspective (from my limited experience) ...

I can only speak to the C-Lions and Surfriggers at the other end of the creek.  If I want to get out and crank out a good strong almost DB paddle I'm taking a Surfrigger (rigged medium).  If I'm working on OC technique and/or surfing, I'd prefer a C-Lion. 

Surfriggers have great rigging options; 3 iako positions into the main canoe - left or right - and I think there are three into the ama, but the steering sucks (you can flip up the rudder for V1, which is nice).  Heavy boats and I'm sure the design is retired, as it should be.

C-Lions have decent steering but boat balance isn't great due to damage and repairs.  I'm pretty sure FCRCC has the lighter "ST" model.  Nice that they can be rigged right for time trials but some boats rig right better than others due to the aforementioned balance issues (Tommy on Dreadnought  know this well).

Last time I checked the C-Lion molds were up for sale (both models).  Not sure if DZ wants to take on fabrication.

Taking it further ...

An OC2/4 or two would be nice for the fleet but how would you work the bookings for them?  I'd rather see a V1 or two if we're doing serious OC1 training.  I know FCRCC is hoping to purchase more OC6 and OC1 boats this year.  Maybe the two clubs could get together on this, which I expect is a pipe dream, but I'm sure you know boats are far cheaper by the container-full.

Finally ...

What goals do DZ want achieve with OC?  Does DZ want to produce competitive OC teams that compete regularly in OC races ?  Will DZ be joining CORA?

Just my .02

[Batman]

Wow, that's a bit of a loaded question and many people probably feel like they don't know enough about the various outrigger canoes available, to be able to make a meaningful reply.

There probably are not very many people in the city who have tried more than a handful of canoes, and even if they have, they probably include some of the older models that are not as readily available anymore.  There are a few threads on OCpaddler.com that compare some of the more current models.  Many of those are slow to manufacture models from Hawaii with long waiting lists for delivery, although I understand that some of them are outsourcing their construction to shops in China.  As long as the hardware isn’t cheap and bendy like those Olym Sports things that died in the fire, I don’t see anything wrong with a Chinese canoe.  Presumably the hull and ama construction can be done just as well by Chinese workers rather than lazy folks on Hawaiian time (who are probably too busy out on the water to sit in a shop and inhale the nasty chemicals used to build these things).  Huki is from California and seems to be easier to get, but I haven’t personally tried one of their canoes and I’ve heard some people complain about them.

Having the “boathouseâ€� approved will help a lot, as hopefully there will be ability to store the canoes closer to the water and be far less likely to be damaged.  It’s still going to be chaos fighting for dock space with all of the dragonboat teams loading and unloading at the same time, people renting kayaks, and who knows what else if they end up adding rowing to the mix.   Ideally there will be a way to have the OC’s separated from the dragonboats, kayaks & regular folks loading onto the Aquabus or False Creek Ferries.  Not sure what the timeline for construction is – maybe we won’t see anything new this summer.

Personally I don’t see much merit in having OC2’s.  It might be fun to race at Big Chop, but I don’t know how useful it would truly be for training.  More OC1’s puts more bums in seats and makes it easier for you to feel what it takes to move the boat. 

OC6’s would be nice to improve upon, because the ones we have are pretty beaten up.  They are also inconsistent in weight, glide characteristics, etc., so it can be hard to divide the crew up into fair groupings if you want to keep several of them moving at similar rates, when you have 2-4 OC6’s practicing at the same time.  However, there are four of them (when they’re not sitting on the dock all apart, waiting to be repaired again) and assuming money is limited, I’d rather see more OC1’s.  One thing we might consider doing to help the OC6 situation, is eliminate the drop from the main part of the dock to that tapered bit that makes it easier to put the canoe into the water.  When teams are moving the boat into the water or pulling it back out, I see people resting the canoe on the edge of the higher part of the dock, like a fulcrum, and you can just hear the fiberglass crunching.  Next time you’re on the docks, take a look up at the sky from below the canoes once, and you will notice that you can see through them.

By reversible ama, I assume you mean have the ability to rig it to the right side (which seems to be used only for folks who paddle on the right in a dragonboat and are training for and taking time trials).  IMO, I don’t think it’s worth limiting the type of boats we can purchase by requiring this ability, which really does not lend itself to comparing in a fair way to paddlers who paddle on the left and those who paddle on the right.  Especially in the C-Lions, the distance from the ama to the hull is shorter if you rig it to the right.

Durability is a concern, for sure.  Keeping the boats close to the water means its far less likely to damage the hull (e.g. smack it on the railings coming down the ramp from the trailers, trying to avoid dragonboat paddlers coming up the ramp from their practice).  But with extra durability, it also adds extra weight and it can be even more difficult for people to carry the canoe without smoking someone in the back of the head.  If the boathouse isn’t coming before arrival of the new boats, a little trolly might be useful and worth the cost.

Not sure about the need to get more OC paddles – sometimes it can be hard to find a steering blade if all of the canoes are being used.  I see a lot of people who paddle them regularly tend to have their own paddle (or more than one, even).  It’s probably good to keep the wooden ones especially if we expect lots of newer paddlers to start outrigger paddling.  If DZ is going to spend $ on paddles, it might be time to look at replacing the horribly beaten up dragonboat paddles (and put up a sign in the shed telling people not to rest/smack the tip against the ground, so the end doesn’t separate, crack, become waterlogged, etc).

Agree with Creature about those battle tank Surfriggers, and the pipe dream of having DZ and FCRCC working together.  It would be nice. 

Oh, and if we are going to have more people OC, we almost certainly have more people huliing.  You might want to add a better way to make sure people can self-rescue (similar to the FCRCC orientation), and also consider finding a better way to warn people when the poo count is getting ridiculous.  I wish we could get more up to date readings rather than those 30 day averages which take too long to tell us when the water is potentially dangerous (because the average has to build up), and on the opposite end – mislead people at the end of the cycle when the water is improving.  By the time people were finally calling off their practices last year, the water was already improving, but the damage was done and people were getting sick, dealing with eye infections, etc.  Don’t mean to derail the thread and get people bent on a tangent here.

[Special K]

I'm not a DZ member but have some insight on club OC's. First off they get beat up so order the heavier more durable layup. I recommend white, they don't fade and don't show the dings as much, plus easier to colour match when repairs are needed. The rigged weight of a heavier layup will come in around 25-30lbs and should be manageable for most (it's all about balancing the canoe when carrying). I've belonged to FCRCC and VOS and have witnessed all level of paddlers damaging canoes, not on purpose of course but accidents do happen and happen often.

Huki's are a very good option, the V1-Z is great for flatwater conditions and Jude offers a dragonboat version with reversible rigging. The V1-X is another good canoe, good in the flat and better at catching the surf in the bumps. I used to own a V1-X and it was super durable (even in carbon/kevlar layup) and a fun stable ride. Hurricanes are a crowd pleaser amongst OC paddlers but again go for the heavy layup. The C-Lions are great for flatwater training but not the best in the bumps. Pegasus are too tippy, Scorpius are a better option but $$$$. For club canoes I'd recommend Huki, C-Lion or durable layup Hurricane. For personal OC I'm partial to the Pueo, there's nothing like a Hawaiian hand built canoe.

In my club our OC2's are well used as they are a good option if you have extra numbers at practice, an OC2 can keep up better with an OC6/dragonboat than someone in a solo.

Cheers,

Kelli

[brainiac]

Kelli, your VOS paddlers baby your canoes compared to False Creek.

At False Creek, the boats are used almost every day for several hours a day. A "normal" boat cannot stand up to this level of usage, even a Huki with a heavy fibreglass layup.

If DZ is buying boats that all DZ paddlers can use, they will be beat up as bad or worse than the False Creek boats. Rudder cables will break, pedals will break, seats will come unglued, rudders will be bent or broken, plugs will go missing, leaks will develop.

There's a reason False Creek bought the Surfrigger mold and changed all the parts (e.g. replacing the old rudder with a drop down rudder). Every design choice was made to address a repair issue learned through hard experience. While they became a lot heavier, they are still pretty good boats, way better than C-lions IMO (even for surfing the small chop we get in English Bay). Ask around the club, you'll find more than a few of the top paddlers think quite highly of the surfrigger.  They are not thoroughbred racing canoes. They are great training boats.

If DZ took a friendlier approach to False Creek (e.g. stop trying to steal teams by offering them free practices) and False Creek lost it's snobbish attitude, maybe the two organizations could work together to improve the surfrigger parts so the boat isn't so heavy while retaining its robustness and ease of repair. It may be an old design but it is still a fine outrigger canoe.