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Dragon Boat Canada


IDBF


Canoe Kayak Canada

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[coach]

I thought I'd start a new thread to brainstorm some ideas for different start lines. Starts are not always fair, they could be improved. It's not the end of the world the way it is but there's no harm in trying to improve.

I think the problems with the current starts are:

1. The teams don't know where the start line is exactly
2. There's usually no penalty for going over
3. There's no record of the start (the finish has a video camera)

If teams could tell exactly where the line was and if they were responsible to get themselves there or be penalized for being over then starts could be fast, fair and efficient.
 

- It could be low-tech; some outrigger races have a starter hold up a black flag whenever a boat is over the line, boats adjust themselves accordingly.
- It could be high-tech; GPS, LED, laser, RF.

[Recoil]

Okay sorry to sound like an ********* but seriously? It was just one race that people are spectating about and in the end the party involved wasn't rewarded for their antics.

To add:
1. To use outrigger starts as a comparison is a joke. Outrigger races have boats basically staggered at the start, with some boats visually behind others. The races are generally long enough that the difference in the start will rarely matter in the grand scheme. Obviously they're held more tightly together during more highly recognized races but they are no where as accurate as you need for a race that is often determined by microseconds.
2. There are bouys to the right and to the left, how can teams not know where the startline is? Kim does a brilliant job of letting teams know how far they need to go too. The difference is that some teams try to find whatever advantage they can get.
3. A LED/Laser/RF will be useful to help teams line up, but overly expensive for its use. You're better off having a floating dock with volunteers holding the tail of a boat with a rope or something that the Canoe & Kayak races are doing with mechanically held starts.
4. There are penalties that are given but generally they have been pretty lenient as of late. In that sense, it's hard to determine what deduction to give a team for trying to gain an unfair advantage at the start. However it could be a powerful deterrent for those repeat offenders.

[LARDCore]

Although my team did not race at Alcan this year, I can tell you that in year's past, Alcan has had the best starts that are not held tail. I have been in races where multiple boats were pointed 45 degrees away from the race course and the marshall exclaiming that "We have alignment!". At other races, boats have been 3-5 rows ahead of other boats at the start.

Short of a gate or dock system, I believe Alcan is doing the best they can (and it's damn good).

If you lose by slivers of a second, make yourself a sliver faster next year. If all of your teammates do the same, you'll win by a fairly large margin the next year.

Now if we all raced for money, that'd be a different story..

Oh, one more thing, if you think Madame Starter is a great on water referree/starter, you should here her call races in the Beer Garden.

[coach]

I bring this up not because of one race at RTA but many races at many festivals. Finish lines are great and start lines are not, that's a fact.

If you aren't concerned about losing by a fraction of a second then why bother with a video camera on the finish? Seriously, why have a photo finish? Just have one person eyeballing it on the finish line. If it's good enough for the start line it should be good enough for the finish line. Why spend any money on cameras for the finish line?

Now is anyone actually opposed to trying to get the start line to the same calibre as the finish line? 

[mandachan]

If getting a held start at RTA is somehow accomplished, then the festival will immediately be in a class of its own and I'd congratulate them on the effort.

If the organizers of RTA never looked at anything to improve on, we wouldn't have the great event we have today. "it's always been done this way" is not a phrase commonly spoken by good event organizers.

Just my two cents.

[Wet spot]

There is a reason that the Nationals and held starts aren't part of RTA in False Creek - there is no practical way to set a temporary starting gantry or starting inflatables that can move up and down with the tides and stay in straight position....they may even have to be moved to allow for boat traffic.  At the very least they would need very heavy infrastructure such as anchors or weights and a major cabling system to hold them in place...very expensive/impractical.  The tides would also affect the race times and would vary from lane to lane and from race to race...there is little point having the refinement/exactness of held starts given the uncertainties of tidal influences.

I have worked with Kim at the Nationals in Calgary and Whistler plus many other events and I have seen her do thousands(?) of starts.  She always asks the pack of boats to move to the start line "slowly and together".  She admonishes boats that fall behind the pack and she stops boats that get ahead.  She rightfully expects the steerspeople to align their boats with the other boats at the start line area and she gives them plenty of time to adjust...she won't let any boat get ahead of the pack at the start line but if your boat is not up with the rest of the pack at start line when she finally calls "we have alignment", you know who to blame ...your steersperson.

Because the true start line that Kim uses at RTA is visual, based on shore marks rather than a buoyed line, it is not possible for steerspeople to know exactly where she is going to start the race only that it is going to start when she has alignment of the pack....hence the importance for steersperson to ensure their boat is up with the pack.

[NFW]

there is no practical way to set a temporary starting gantry or starting inflatables that can move up and down with the tides and stay in straight position....they may even have to be moved to allow for boat traffic.  At the very least they would need very heavy infrastructure such as anchors or weights and a major cabling system to hold them in place...very expensive/impractical.  The tides would also affect the race times and would vary from lane to lane and from race to race...there is little point having the refinement/exactness of held starts given the uncertainties of tidal influences.

^ QFT.

if your boat is not up with the rest of the pack at start line when she finally calls "we have alignment", you know who to blame ...your steersperson.

Because the true start line that Kim uses at RTA is visual, based on shore marks rather than a buoyed line, it is not possible for steerspeople to know exactly where she is going to start the race only that it is going to start when she has alignment of the pack....hence the importance for steersperson to ensure their boat is up with the pack.

The responsibility does not only lie on the steersperson. The whole boat is responsible.
The caller needs to signal the steersperson to back it up or bring the boat forward in line with all the other boats.
The steersperson needs to call the right amount of power from the paddlers to adjusts the boat position with precision (back half only, back 2 only, etc)
so that means the whole boat needs to be alert and responsive on the start line to help the positioning...It's a team sport for a reason.

[Backward Rowing]

In the end of the day, the result is from the every member of the team.  I find it strange that many members of the team are not even aware of what the racing rules are (let it be IDBF general rules or specific regatta rules). I find it unsafe when out-of-town teams do not take advantage of the pre-race practice time large festivals allot just to feel what the course might be like.  Regardless, I never understood why "command" crew members (i.e. steersperson, drummer and team manager), don't just take a nice walk BEFORE the regatta starts and actually see where is the start zone, start line, mid-line, finish line, marshalling queues and regatta areas.

I know I do, just so I can familiarize myself with the race course and potential warm-up areas.

Just by eye-balling the line before racing really does help the drummer keep aligned along the start line.

[coach]

Ok people, focus in 

This is my thread and it's for brainstorming ideas for the start line. If you don't think it's necessary or possible then you don't need to reply. Like I said it's not the end of the world the way it is, this is just brainstorming. 

My idea:

1. Have a way for teams to know exactly where the start line is
2. Put the onus on the team to be on or behind the start line
3. Video the start just like they video the finish
4. Teams that are over get time added, 0.3 seconds per foot!
5. Can be used at any festival

This isn't about a held start, it's about teams knowing where the line is and then lining themselves up.

If anyone is interested in brainstorming then reply or pm me.

 

[rb]

You just need 2 fixed reference points on the SAME SIDE of the water, that way the boats can see the line.

[Backward Rowing]

rb, you mean one reference point on the other side of the water from the starter's tent which creates a start line, just like the one reference point on the other side of the water from the timing tent which creates the finish line.

At RTADBF this year, the timing tent was diagonal (opposite shore) of the starter's tent.

[rb]

Hey BR, that's not what I mean. If you're in a boat on the water and one point is to your left (the starters tent) and one is to your right (the orange paint on the other side of the water) you can't line them up because you're between them! That's the way it is now which is fine for the starter to see the line but the boats can't.

You need two reference marks on the same side of the water, either two points that are to your left or two points that are to your right when you're in the boat. For example, a pole at the starters tent and a pole behind the starters tent!

For False Creek you could use the pole on the seawall at the starters tent and a flag pole behind them at the plaza of nations.

rb

[allancito]

we already have on water boats out  at the start line, why cant we utilize them to a greater degree, and possibly use something as simple as a rope line between two official boats,front of dragonboat touches  rope, it aligment paddles up,(rope then is pulled) attention please. simple enough to remedy simply complaints