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Dragon Boat Canada


IDBF


Canoe Kayak Canada

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[LittleSchrodinger]

Since the advancements are based on times I would have liked to see evenly matched teams race each other in both the qualifiers. The 2nd qualifier has some evenly matched teams racing but not all, and the first qualifier is a grid layout that you'd use for advancements based on placement.

I'm sure FCRCC, Magnum, Masters, SI Black and Pac Reach would have loved to race each other in the 200 metre. The same goes for all the other teams. Why not race against teams in your division right from the start? There's no need to seed the way it is, that's only necessary when you use placement for advancements. This is an opportunity for close races throughout.

Maybe next year you can consider it.

Yes, but not all seeding are accurate. Teams' performances can change drastically from festival to festival depending on paddler turnover, coaching changes, sheer training, and whatnot. While it's nice to try and seed teams within their level, it's also much more obvious when a team doesn't belong. (A stupidly drastic example would be if you swap out a comp team entirely with rec paddlers, with the only similarity being the team name.) If you seed them so that they'll race within a range of skill level the next heat in a small festival, it's going to be basically a rerace of the said heat and it won't change the result at all. With the current seeding system, it's easier to group the teams within their level through basic placement. That, and the teams are going to be racing closer to their skill level for three races out of four anyway. (Unlike Taiwanese.)

*Moderator Note - I've tried to split this topic out as best I can from the original Harrison thread since this topic seems to have sparked interest and discussion within the community.

[BernMan]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that what the first round is supposed to do? Weed out the teams that are not comparable and hopefully match them up with more like teams? It should end up with results that make you race with others more comparable to your team. Without actually knowing how good all the teams are, the first round has limited info that can probably predict who a favorite might be followed by 2nd, 3rd and so on. The 2nd round should put you head to head with at least one or two other teams more like yours is. That is then followed by the semi races which should then give you much closer races. Its been this way for a very long time and seems to work well too, no? I know that most teams who are novice or recreational and only paddle once a week know that their first round is just to see where they stack up but the rest of the races should be more to their liking.

The above is just my opinion and observation and it seems to be a good system. I can't recall the last time a race grid was questioned though...

[rb]

You guys are missing the point.

If placement is used for determining the divisions (like in most festivals) then you need to seed teams ahead of time i.e. the top 12 teams in Lane 3, teams 13-24 in Lane 4, 25-36 in Lane 2 etc. This system works well, no question. The only problem is that you only race your peers in 2 out of the 4 races.

This is one of the few festivals that uses time to determine the divisions. It doesn't matter where you place in your qualifiers. So the teams in the qualifiers could be random, they could be alphabetical, you can group them any way they want and it won't affect the division you end up in.

This means that you can race against evenly matched teams in the qualifiers.

They did this somewhat for the second qualifier. Note that the 2nd qualifier isn't 1st from heat 1, 2nd from heat 2, 3rd from heat 3, 4th from heat 4, 5th from heat 5. They're putting several 1st and 2nd place teams together etc.

The point is that the 200-metre race could be against evenly matched teams as well, it would be more fun and exciting and it wouldn't affect the division that you end up with because they use your time. These sprint 200-metre races are fun. Harrison has an opportunity to have more races against evenly-matched teams including the 200-metre if they do the grid that way.

Consider it.

[Special K]

I question the 200m qualifier for seeding placement. Most teams from medium rec division to high comp can pull off a decent 200m time, it's the 250m+ where teams start to pull away. I don't think it has happened yet but this could allow for a lower ranked team to advance ahead of a another team if they have a faster 200m. Look at past race results where 200m times are very close in the qualifier and then in the 500m for the same crews the time difference between 1st, 2nd and 3rd place is 5+ seconds or sometimes even more.

Just my peanut thoughts but I guess that's racing for ya.

[BernMan]

Good points rb & Special K.

I am sure the race grid dude will consider all points. As he usually does...

[Rob]

The problem with placement on time though, is wind conditions on the lake.  For the future festivals, you could have 2 heats of 200m, like the fist day of Rio Tinto Alcan, where you have the placement heat on points, then the second heat all the teams that are close to you times race together to find out who goes to witch 500m semi, and as in Alcan, the semi is a little farther of a gap of teams racing each other, so if you are not as good in a 200m, you still have a chance to race in the correct 500m final.

Just a thought.  I enjoy the Alcan system because only one race is lopsided and all the rest seem to be closer.

[Rob]

With this race grid, it would be easy to accomplish for the 200m races, there are 12 heats, so 12 first place teams, split into 2 heats of firsts places, 2 heats of second places, etc. 4th place teams are only considered 4th place, if there are 5 teams in a heat. Last place finishers are divided into the last 2 heats.

The next races would be 500m

  You would have 3 Comp semis, divided up with the  4 teams of the first place finisher heats and 2 from the best of the second place finisher heats.

The 3 rec A/B/C heats would be divided with 2 of the second place finisher heats ( bottom 6 teams) and 4 teams of the 3rd placed heats. 

The next 3 heats would have the top 3 of the 4th place finishers, and  2 of the last place finisher heats (top 6 teams). The last heat would race with the remaining crews.

You would advance to the final with the top 2 finishers of the comp heats making the comp A final, the next 2 making the next final, etc.

[NFW]

I'm sure FCRCC, Magnum, Masters, SI Black and Pac Reach would have loved to race each other in the 200 metre. The same goes for all the other teams.

You guys are all missing the point! LOL jk

rb would just like to see FCRCC, Magnum, Masters, SI Black, and Pac Reach race each other for FOUR times in one day...can you blame him?

[Rob]

It would be fun to race close together in each race, that is the most exciting for me personally, but if you were the top team of the next 5 teams, you may feel you would like a shot of racing up, and seeing if racing one of those teams would make you go faster.

I wonder if we could get some more paddlers that aren't involved in the top '5' teams comment if they were fine with just paddling with the same teams around their speed.

We could try something like that at the FCRCC regatta if teams are into that concept.   

[LittleSchrodinger]

That's a good point, we haven't heard much from paddlers outside of the highly favoured teams. (Some of us get a little too vocal at times.  )

[rb]

I’m on a B team and I’d prefer to race other similar teams every time that’s why I’m suggesting this.

When you use placements (points) then you need to have one A team, one B, one C, one D and one E per qualifying heat. It’s a necessary race for that system, but those qualifiers are not great races for anyone. Pacific Reach probably doesn’t enjoy racing Spirit Abreast any more than Spirit Abreast enjoys racing Pacific Reach. We do it because we have to when using points but if you’re using time then you don’t have to do it that way.

Rob, you couldn’t use time at the FCRCC regatta because the tide affects the times too much – you need to use placements (points) so you’re stuck with seeding (one A team, one B, one C etc). At Harrison there’s no tide. As you say there is wind but they’ve decided to use time. No system is perfect (points or time) and they've chosen time. I’m not complaining about using time to determine the divisions, that’s not the point (I actually think it’s fine).  I’m just suggesting a better way to do the qualifiers since they’re using time not placement.

The point is that all the races can be close, including the qualifiers. There’s no need for lopsided races.

I enjoy the Alcan system because only one race is lopsided and all the rest seem to be closer

If you’re a comp team at Alcan you only have one lopsided race (and I think the last place teams too). Everyone else has 2 lopsided races. Here at Harrison they’ve devised a grid with only 1 lopsided race but all the races could be close.

if you were the top team of the next 5 teams, you may feel you would like a shot of racing up, and seeing if racing one of those teams would make you go faster

You can make it where the top team in the first qualifier moves up one and the bottom team moves down one. Plus in the semis you have the 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th and 10th place teams in one and 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th in the other and so on. So there you get your variety and the chance to move up or down as well.

Here’s a suggestion on how to do the qualifiers that would be more fun and teams would still end up the same in the same division since they’re using TOTAL TIME not placement.


Qualifiers 200 m

Heat 1
Pacific Reach
Sudden Impact Black
FCRCC
Magnum
Masters
1st to 4th go to Heat 13, 5th to heat 14

Heat 2
Burnaby Fire Breathing Dragons
Fluid Motion
Riptide
VO2 Max
Team Storm
1st to Heat 13, 2nd 3rd and 4th to Heat 14, 5th to Heat 15
 
Heat 3
How Wet Can You Get?
Grandragons
Raceface
Vortex
SFU Scaly Dragonbytes
1st to Heat 14, 2nd 3rd and 4th to Heat 15, 5th to Heat 16
 
and so on.

So if Riptide wins Heat 2 then they go against the A teams. If SFU wins Heat 3 they go against VO2 Max etc. So it keeps it fun in the qualifiers. The top team moves up one, the bottom team moves down one. Or you could have the top 2 teams move up one and the bottom 2 teams move down one. Again this is all for the qualifiers AND SINCE THEY USE TIME IT DOESN’T MATTER WHO’S IN YOUR RACE OR WHERE YOU PLACE, so why not make it more fun and put close teams against each other every time. It’s an opportunity to make Harrison EVEN BETTER. It’s one of the few festivals to use time to determine the divisions so please get rid of the crappy seeding races, you don’t need them. There's no need for Fort Fury to race FCRCC.

Let’s face it, the first race is not great. If you’re in tidal waters then you need to use placement (points) so you need to seed that way. No argument there. But since they’re using TIME at this festival it doesn’t matter how you seed so why not make it close in the qualifiers? The first two races only give you the times so the placement doesn’t matter. You can get your times while racing some close teams so why not. Who wants to be in a lopsided race if you don’t have to be? Sorry I’m repeating myself but not everyone is getting the point.

It’s a better way to do the qualifiers and can only be done in festivals where they use time to determine the divisions. They’re on the right track with making the 2nd qualifier closer so give them credit for doing that. The 1st qualifier could be better as well. In this case it’s a 200-metre race and you could race against your peers instead of everyone but your peers.

There’s no reason to have the first qualifier the way it is except out of habit from all the other festivals. Please consider close qualifiers in the future where advancement is based on total time.

[Rob]

I like the idea!:

Qualifiers 200 m

Heat 1
Pacific Reach
Sudden Impact Black
FCRCC
Magnum
Masters
1st to 4th go to Heat 13, 5th to heat 14

Heat 2
Burnaby Fire Breathing Dragons
Fluid Motion
Riptide
VO2 Max
Team Storm
1st to Heat 13, 2nd 3rd and 4th to Heat 14, 5th to Heat 15
 
Heat 3
How Wet Can You Get?
Grandragons
Raceface
Vortex
SFU Scaly Dragonbytes
1st to Heat 14, 2nd 3rd and 4th to Heat 15, 5th to Heat 16
 
and so on.

If we use your example, you could continue on this way, and not use time as a factor, as long as the pre-seeding is accurate (I think if pre-seeding is accurate your teams would be in the same order as the first race as the third race, correct?) My point is, we could try this in a False Creek race and see if it works.  We could use the DBW rankings to set the grid, and then the rankings would be worth something. You could even have 200m finals and 500m finals on the same day, because you don't need all the seeding races.  It would not be perfectly fair, but maybe teams would give it a try.  At least it would be different, interesting and more exciting racing.  What do you think?

[rb]

The topic here is Harrison.

They're using total time for the advancements. The placement in the qualifiers are not used. So go ahead and put close teams against each other in both the qualifiers here at Harrison.

If you try it at other regattas where you base advancements on placement it may or may not work well. Here at Harrison where the advancements are based on total time then both the qualifiers can be set however you like. Please make both the qualifiers close here at Harrison.

K?

[LittleSchrodinger]

Unfortunately, I don't think Rob has the say over Harrison qualifiers, and right now with less than a week to go until Harrison, it's best to leave it to the WE to decide.

<_< Also, we're getting a little WAY off topic.

[rb]

I'm not suggesting Harrison change the grid for this year. It's too late and it won't make any difference to which division teams end up in.

But for any future festival that uses TIME for advancements (like Harrison 2010) please think it through and don't default to qualifiers that seed teams the same way that it's done for festivals that use placement for advancements. There's no reason to do it that way and there's better ideas on how do to it.

Rob kept hijacking to talk about next year's FCRCC regatta. Rob, if you want to discuss that pm me.

rb