[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

 

Dragon Boat Canada


IDBF


Canoe Kayak Canada

191 Guests, 0 Users

[James Cole]

the trouble with having a team with the "best from across canada" is the different paddling styles.  the members of said dream team would probably need a few months paddling with eachother to achieve suffient blend of paddling style and "teamness".  that would require more time off of work/more sponsorship money etc etc.  as it was, with our mainly west coast paddler team, it was still easy to tell who the non-FC paddlers were simply by paddling style.  we were lucky that the other westies have practiced with us enough over the past two years that integration wasn't difficut, and the easterner we had was able to pick up our style quickly enough so that we performed without any hiccups.

I used to feel the same way, but this year changed my mind.
The US Premier Open team was, in fact, a "throw together" team from various areas and various paddling disciplines and with a wide range of styles. This group really didn't practice together as a complete whole prior to Australia. There really was no "teamness" as a result. But the folks in the boat all understood the style of stroke and were all both flexible enough and experienced enough to blend in the boat. And everyone was focused on the same end goal.
Yes... it resulted in a boat that didn't have the visual "look" that a lot of coaches desire (all strokes mirrors of eachother in air and water) - but the performance speaks for itself.

I think that it is, in fact, entirely possible to pull together a boat with a wide range of styles and have a high degree of performance.
What it seems to require is:
 1 - strong coaching and direction.
 2 - paddlers who have experience - preferably across a range of paddle sports - and can change and blend styles quickly.
 3 - paddlers who are flexible, motivated and as ego-less as is possible.
 4 - very good communication.

The idea is that it's easier to quickly teach very skilled, world class multi-sport paddlers how to paddle together in a dragonboat than it is to take experienced team DB paddlers and turn them into world class athletes.

[brainiac]

Someone kindly provided me with some info on the False Creek Canoe Society, which is the non-profit society that runs the FCRCC.

I think it's a bit misleading to view the FCCS as distinct from FCRCC as they are essentially the same thing. Unlike DZ and the Festival Society, club members (volunteers) run the club. This is very different from the other "clubs" on the creek, which are run by paid staff. FCRCC does pay for some very limited part time administrative help but otherwise spends all the revenue on our facilities, equipment, insurance, coaching, etc.

To bring this back on topic, I agree it's desirable and within its mandate for FCCS/FCRCC to build media awareness. Maybe one day we'll get our act together and do it. In the meantime, we're busy paddling and doing what we can to keep the club going. If people have ideas on changing things, please attend the AGM and share them. Better still, I invite anyone to volunteer to handle "media relations". 

PS: Wanker, love the case of Heiniken.

[brainiac]

I believe a team that trains together for an extended period will always have better blend than a team with only a few weeks practice no matter how good the individual paddlers. I also believe that a team with very strong individual paddlers can overcome a team with better blend but with less strong individual paddlers. So the ideal situation is to assemble the best paddlers and have them train together for several months (assuming they will eventually develop good blend). If you can't do that, you have to compromise on "selecting the best athletes" versus "maximizing team blend". If you're curious to see how another national paddle sports organization is trying to address this issue, check out http://www.canadianoutrigger.com/sprintselection.html and you'll see the Canadian Outrigger Racing Association is trying to have both set crews and "all star" crews for OC6.

[glowing_ice]

james cole, i believe the US Open's team was made up of Danny Ching and his OC buddies.  so there are some familiarity with each other in terms of stroke and paddling styles.  it's not like they are going into the worlds blindly.  yep those guys were just awesome to watch.

just some thought... maybe i'm wrong but what if canada could pool their best paddlers from ACROSS the country and not only Ontario? might we have a better chance next time around?  (cause we all know Ontario does not represent entire Canada).  it's an interesting learning experience either way looking at how the US team was formed.

[Colossus]

from one of the US Premier team members regarding their composition and some strategy:

Philly won nationals and true to its form committed to bringing a team that had a chance to win. Some of those winning nationals did not make the boat. However, most of the boat had raced with Philly before. Philly has been using regional and national talent for a number of years to make it a true national team.

Only two guys were "new" outsiders, Ching and Tyson Poppler both outrigger guys from the West Coast. Only one kayak guy this year, Chris Swan, who raced with us the last 3 years (we used 6 kayakers in 2004). The outrigger guys really fit in well. One true rookie was the coach's 19 year old son who earned his seat in time trials. He had one on one outrigger sessions with the old man that made him fast.

We had the best guy from the Portland area, Darryl Hogge, who captained the Port Diego team that raced in Iowa in 2004, he then joined us for Shanghai later that year and raced Berlin and Tampa with us. In the Philly "core" are guys who live in NYC and the DC area who practice with the team. Ben Ledewitz the head coach of the Pittsburgh team also paddled with us in Tampa and Sydney.

The boat was led by a pair of Seniors in the stroke pair, Ross Flemer an elite rower and Kevin McFadden. They have stroked the boat together since 2001 and did every thing the coach asked each race. Their experience was a huge factor in holding the boat under control in the middle of the race to set up the sprint as we had to come from behind because of how quick the Phillipines and China were in the first 200.

Strategy wise coach had the boat dog the first 500 heat because GB and the Phillipines were in there with 2 to qualify and he saw no reason to race hard 3 times when you could race hard twice. A lot of dudes were doubting coach but the Phillipines and GB took the bait and raced hard (1:50 and 1:51)while we chilled in the reps, might have been what gave us the edge in the final 150 meters.

False Creek was strong but the field was ripping fast, GB was great, the Asians amazing off the line and in the 200. What can you say about the Canadian women that hasn't been said, they are the class of the field.

[Rossifumi]

If the head coach can get the right people, and has enough time for them to move the boat effectively as a crew, that seems to be all that matters. 

Whether they pull locally or across the board is up to them, and with a ton of factors to weigh and consider.
Not least of which would be geography, you wouldn't have a lot of options if your country was a small island nation. 

It'd be silly for us sitting behind a keyboard to summarily declare "this is the winning formula!", because a crew won something.  It was quite apparent that what worked for one country (crew blends, styles etc) didn't work for everyone else.

these two for ex. couldn't be more different:
US.. partly throw-together team, smooth marathon canoe-like style, slower rate, big country with fast guys from all over to pick from.
Philippines.. set crew out of a Boracy(sp?), fast fast rate, small country, all from the same little area
Similarly, both teams had a decent Mixed crew, and a dominating Open crew, both were successful.  Interesting to note, the Premier Open 200 final was Ph/Gold, US/5th.

Even if I did go to the Worlds, I'd be quick to check the mental brakes before saying how any country should operate selection and what's best etc..  There's just too much we don't know to make a qualified decision.

[rightarm]

(cause we all know Ontario does not represent entire Canada). 

                

but but but... they're the centre of the universe......

 

[Colossus]

actually, i think the philipine's mixed crew was slower than chinese teipei. 

[Viking Paddler]

Even if I did go to the Worlds, I'd be quick to check the mental brakes before saying how any country should operate selection and what's best etc..  There's just too much we don't know to make a qualified decision.

So when can we unlock the brakes and discuss how the selection process can be improved IF it needs to be?  Do we need more experience before we can do this, or do we have to be on the National squad before a comment can be made, or when will we know if we are knowledgeable enough to comment?  I've been a firm believer that open discussion provides an opportunity for improvement.  Maybe the process is fine as it is.  Who can really say?  Maybe the sport of Dragon Boating can learn from other sports (e.g. hockey, soccer, rugby, etc...).  Just looking for creative dialogue to further a sport I really enjoy. 

I'm unfamiliar with how the National team squad is selected, so input on this matter would help shed some light on this topic.

Has there ever been discussion on:
-  A Super League/Premier League in the West, where teams would compete against each other for points and the team on top of the points standing at the end of the season would be crowned champion.
- A Challenge cup (similar to the original Stanley Cup concept) where teams could challenge the holder of the cup to a race-off for the cup.
- A Sprint League (similar to the Super League, but shorter distances)

[glowing_ice]

Has there ever been discussion on:
-  A Super League/Premier League in the West, where teams would compete against each other for points and the team on top of the points standing at the end of the season would be crowned champion.
- A Challenge cup (similar to the original Stanley Cup concept) where teams could challenge the holder of the cup to a race-off for the cup.
- A Sprint League (similar to the Super League, but shorter distances)

interesting you brought this up.  the other day some friends of mine in the paddling community was explaining to me how the east coast had a "grand prix" style tournaments and leagues.  this is where teams just come out once every week and race each other to accumulate points.  at the end of the season they were ranked on a point based ranking system based on the weekly race offs, the placing at dboat festivals, regattas etc.  i believe there is also a cash prize and a trophy at end of the season.  if you check the dragonboat canada website there is an east coast ranking system of some sort.
 
(for you who OC does this system sound somewhat familar?  how about CORA Cup?)

now this is just what i heard from word of mouth.  i can't verfiy if such a grand prix exists in the east coast.  but in my opinion this would be a good thing for the west coast, let's say if we can setup something similar where local teams come out to False Creek every week for race offs.  it will help teams get faster on the water and keep the competition tight. 

[Colossus]

there has been talk of setting up some weekly races in the creek for a while now, but so far as i know, zero progress has been made.  there are lots of things to consider when trying to put something like this in place, including location (a clear path for 4-6 boats to go head-to-head), timing equipment, and personel.

the process for selecting the national team in canada is both an open process and a somewhat veiled process.  the initial part of putting together the national team comes at the National Team Trials every 2nd year.  A team gets thrown together by whatever means by a coach and sent to wherever the race-offs are being held that year.  You race against anyone else wanting to put together Team Canada in your division (Junior, Premier, Senior, Grand Dragons, followed by Open, Mixed, Women for each division).  the winner gets the allocation for putting together that team (ex. Premier Open).  That is, the coach of the winning team gets to put together his or her very own Team Canada. 
This is the point where it can remain a fairly open process or it can turn into a veiled process, depending on how this coach decides to put together the team.  It can be an invite only team, an open time trial based team, etc etc etc etc.  However they decide to do it, its their choice. 

[Viking Paddler]

Wow, so that's how it's done.  Not that I like to stir the pot, but curiosity has gotten the best of me.  The question that comes to my mind is does this process create the best possible team to represent Team Canada?  I realize that if a team has been together for awhile the blend within that boat would be better (you'd think) than a team that has been just thrown together.  But would you have the best paddlers representing Canada from across Canada?  And does that create the fastest possible boat?  I guess similar questions have been asked about Team Canada (hockey).  Does a team of all-stars make a better team than a group of guys/gals that have been together for awhile but function well as a unit?  Definitely a topic of debate.

Go Canada Go!

[Colossus]

definately a good topic for debate, and there is probably no sure-fire answer.  sometimes you'll get a stronger team doing it one way, sometimes you'll get a stronger team doing it the other way. 
for this past crew, we had a core of local paddlers, and still took on some others that had paddled with us before (gorging), and two other out of towners.  there were some others that were initially penciled into the roster, but didn't end up going for whatever reasons.  I can't speak for the coach, but it looked to me that if you were willing to come out for a handful of practices, were fast/strong enough, and could adapt to the technique we were using, you had a good shot at being considered. 

at last year's NTTs, the crew from false creek went as a club crew to race against a thrown together team from out east.  sure, we didn't win, but we sure as hell didn't lose by much.  individually, they were probably faster than all but a handful of our paddlers, but we had the experience together as a crew that had been training "as one" for about a year.  this year, if we raced the same crew under the same circumstances (them having been thrown together last minute), i'm 99.9% sure that we'd have beaten them just because we're that much stronger and faster this year. 

the trouble with getting a true cross-country selection of the top paddlers is that the country is so BIG and the sport isn't getting much funding, if any.  plus, most paddlers have jobs that require them to be there, and not spending a month flying away to some base camp to train with a true cross-country selected Team Canada, plus time spent at the worlds. 

[Rob]

Good points everyone.   Just to let everyone know DBC is looking at ways of changing things to increase the profile of Dragon Boating and selection of a National Crew.  I can't get into much detail because things are not set yet and will be looked at.  Cloe, the DBC rep at the worlds likes peoples feedback on how to better Dragon Boating. If anyone has a solid plan they can contact DBC.  In regards to local Dragon boating, I was in a round table talk with MP Heady Fry and MP Stephan Dion with members from different sports in BC raising our concerns with sports.  Let me tell you, our sport is not the only one with limited media coverage.  Other than the Olympics, most of the sports don't have coverage.  How are the flatwater guys doing? Is there any coverage on that Olympic padding sport.  How about white water?  Or many other sports like track and field, Volleyball etc.  My point is sport in general in Canada needs more funding and attention.  It is up to us to get involved.  My main concern that I have put forward is development of False Creek with Marina's and Squatter Boats, so we still have room to practice and race.  I also asked them to put pressure to Dredge Burnaby Lake sooner, so we could have a closer venue to host any IDBF (DBC) races or ICF races. ( there are rules to make sure there is fair racing, thats why the race offs are in Calgary. )  We need practice areas and venues so we can host races, then we can maybe get some funding and media attention.