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Dragon Boat Canada


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Canoe Kayak Canada

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[island girl]

Well said Woodsman.  Diversity; isn't it a great thing!

[Guido]

I think that Kelowna is becoming more of a "funfest" for some teams. One last end of season party...with a bit of paddling. Some teams seek out the strongest paddlers from other teams that aren't going, dump half of their initial crew from the season and stack their boat for Kelowna. Others take who they can get this late in the year.

Not all teams go to Alcan and for some reason this festival becomes the sole indicator of whether or not a team is good. There are a lot of other festivals that both Island teams and mainland teams go to that show continued performance throughout the season against top teams from both the Island and the mainland. Why must the "Almighty Alcan" be the only festival that counts? It seems to me that if your team didn't go to Alcan then you are a brutal team because nobody bothers to check the standings for any other festivals.  

Island teams take note: If you don't go to Alcan....you don't count!

WHAT THE HELL DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH KELOWNA PREDICTIONS?

And can someone explain to me whoever said the VANCOUVER race held in June is the only indicator?
Why don't people get their FACTS correct before the post .....

[DBWTim]

WHAT THE HELL DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH KELOWNA PREDICTIONS?

And can someone explain to me whoever said the VANCOUVER race held in June is the only indicator?
Why don't people get their FACTS correct before the post .....

Down boy! Bad dog!

I've moved this post to this thread from the Kelowna Predictions because I feel that the responses will fall along with this debate. It could be a stretch but I think the post that set ARMY off may be this one...

ssSteam Heat is a victoria team they didn't enter alcan as far as i know this year. They came in second at the richmond festival behind another victoria team (correct me if I'm wrong). They're a rec team but have done pretty well this year including at the Victoria festival.

It could be that they interpreted the posting as "Since they didn't enter Alcan. they're a rec team." Of course I'm not a mind reader though...

[grifter]

I personally can't stand the "us vs. them" attitude that reared its head after the Richmond Festival (warranted or not).  I think we all can agree that the 3 main festivals (Alcan, Victoria, and Kelowna) are all a fairly accurate yardstick of a team's current performance level.  I have always thought that the first major race of the season, which happens to be Alcan, was scheduled too early in the season to be the big target for the year.  But as chaos stated earlier, it has always been at that time of year for reasons other than racing.

Schedule wise, Victoria may be a better "peak" of the season than Alcan, (and Kelowna since the time of year makes it a wind-down festival), but in terms of teams attending, Alcan does deserve its "big race" moniker.  because more teams from out of province attend Alcan, such as from the California area, which Victoria can not boast.  It all comes down to cost and logistics.  Until they build a bridge or have cheaper ferries, island teams will find it difficult to make the trek to Alcan and vice versa for LML teams to Victoria.  And I guess three festivals in August are out of the question.

I would be interested in knowing how all teams treat out of town festivals.  Fun or performance?  I know that personally, going out of town for a festival is a mini vacation, and focus on fun is greater than beating all other teams (not that I don't paddle hard, I just don't need a medal to make my weekend enjoyable).  Truth be told, I enjoyed Victoria much more than Alcan.

[ARMY]

I didn't realize that this rant would start this kind of debate.

Guido: The point I was making is that there is a huge amount of reference to Alcan throughout the posts on this site. A large part of that is because of the fact that a majority of paddlers are from the LML and do go to Alcan. There is nothing wrong with that. I have a problem, however, with people referencing a race in June when it is September now. A lot has changed. Live in the now.

Chaos: The point I was trying to make was that there are many other festivals that have websites with results posted. If a team doesn't know what another team is like, then they can always do some research and find out how they have done in previous festivals. This is much easier than assuming because they weren't at Alcan or Richmond that they must not be "competitive paddlers".

I mean no ill-will to the LML paddlers. A lot of Island teams used to go to Alcan but with entry costs and travel costs, it is hard to decide what festivals to go to and Alcan lost out for a lot of teams when Nanaimo came online.  Alcan is just too big and dis-organized for many.  I hear they can learn a lot from Calgary.

Alcan may have a lot of teams, but it may not be the best festival. A great festival will attract the best teams from all over. I know Alcan tries to do this, but it is difficult.

Will there ever be a way to settle who the best really is? No; because we all go to different festivals that fit our schedules and personal expense constraints. Not all teams that do well are hard-core freaks who have noithing in their lives but paddling. It isn't worth a few hundred bucks each to go to Alcan. As for cash prizes...that is a whole other level of sport. The fun would disappear as soon as money was on the line.

All I am asking is that before making predictions about who will do the best at a festival, please check results from the WHOLE season instead of just Alcan. A lot of high calibre teams have been at various festivals and performance against them throughout the year is a better indicator of strength than one weekend festival held in June.

[BernMan]

is very well put! I couldn't have said it any differently myself. I swear I know the dude but I was told to stop asking who's who on here so I won't. LOL Actually I don't know anyone from the ARMY team so I most likely have no clue who he is!

I think what ALCAN is risking though is that with the high cost of entry fees they will lose more teams. Teams that may be in it for the fun with a bit of racing or teams that are here for the racing and try to have fun either right after or during so long as the coach doesn't catch you!   For crying out loud it is becoming more about making money than it is about the racing. I am aware there are a whole bunch of other things going on with respect to most festivals but it is getting out of hand.

[Lethal Weapon]

Thats why Festivals like Nanaimo will grow. A well run FUN festival where paddlers race hard and party Together harder. Its not all about the beer but Hey!, its a great part of it. Putting Money on the line would bascially eliminate the rec teams from entering and leavet he a very small field indeed of probably non DB teams but teams of non DB paddlers teaming together to win. (OC, KAyak etc.)
Its unfortunatley all about the money if proceeds go to benefit a good cause and I get a few strokes in and have some good racing and beer, I'm happy

[woodsman]

I am posting way too much, but feel strongly.  I agree with the last few posts...dragon boating is awesome, the festivals are good, and the people are incredible.  

Put prize money in the formula?...death.

I believe that festivals are fun, and should celebrate the sport.  It is unfortunate, that travel costs can prohibit some teams from going to some festivals....yet...hell....go to what you can afford -- they are usually all fun (well, except maybe the Saturday of Kelowna last year, but that was not the festival's fault)

Sorry, I will try not to post again or so much.....it has been a great season, and I have enjoyed myself immensely -- got some bookmarks, got some hardware....but had an awesome time.

Can I ask any more of my investment?

Thanks to all....see you next year at some venue....if not the gym this winter.

[tiger]

I hear they can learn a lot from Calgary.

That was a joke right        

Comparing a festival with 200 teams to one with 50 teams is not even worthy.  If you are a "rec" paddler Calgary can be another one of your Fun Festivals to put on the calendar.  If you are a rec team from the "Island" or LML go to Calgary if you want a shot at racing in the top division (and maybe even getting a medal).  Organization etc in Calgary was not good anytime I was there, in fact quite disorganized and some of there rules make you think you were at a FMG event (read the DB East forum if you don't know FMG).

How do I know, I was there a couple of times 2 years ago and the only real competition for a comp team is Calgary Canoe otherwise it is like racing Rec B (Alcan) or Bronze/Silver Division (Victoria) teams.

Comparing a festival with 200 (Alcan) teams to one with 90 (Victoria) is a stretch.  The racing in Victoria has definitely gotten better but it is still not at the level of Alcan.  Alcan could definitely learn something from Victoria in regards to treating the paddlers off the water.

In the end, each festival/regatta have their good points and their not so good points, we luckily have a choice.  Now we just need to find the money.

[Guido]

All I am asking is that before making predictions about who will do the best at a festival, please check results from the WHOLE season instead of just Alcan. A lot of high calibre teams have been at various festivals and performance against them throughout the year is a better indicator of strength than one weekend festival held in June.

Why don't you get the correct facts  before you make statements like this.  You have no idea how much information is out there.  You have no idea how much research is done before any predictions are made...MR ARMY.  You have no idea what it takes to put on a set of races and how the race director/committee go about doing their rankings.  

As Tiger says....you can't compare a Calgary race and a Vancouver race.  I've been there 5 times since 1992 and hell....the only competition for us there has been the Calgary Husky Oil team(no longer in existence), Pond Scum from Regina, and now..Calgary Canoe Club(when they have their full roster).  In fact....it took Calgary till 2001 to go to the 500 metre format.....that's how far behind they are.  They have the worst officials(well it's actually a toss up between GOROW and them) AND the worst starters(again...a toss up with GOROW).

The same goes for Islandgirl and her comment on AIAB and the Vancouver races.  Get your facts correct before you make such comments.   You know nothing about the wheelings and dealings of what went on with AIAB and Vancouver.
In fact I sat in on a couple of meetings with AIAB in Sept 2004 to start the organization for their 1st North American Breast Cancer Championship Celebration.  

I give up.....just....

[Secret Weapon]

... You tell 'em Guido.  Research, then speak your mind.  I have not been back to the Victoria Festival for years.  For competitive teams the race course is sub-standard.  Where are the lines?  I think we all heard about lack of proper lines at last years fiasco of a semi-final and final.  Also didn't the beer garden run out of   ???  And the crowds from the racer's village to the docks.  Sorry but I am very pro-Alcan, afterall that is where it all began many moons ago.  Even when I was a rec level paddler my team always trained hard into Alcan then "slacked" off during the summer and got together for a few practices for Kelowna.  But I don't knock the quality of paddlers and teams from the Island...Gorging, Koi and the up and coming Navy, Extreme Reach...  There are many.

[ARMY]

I am not knocking all of the effort of the race organizers and volunteers Guido, so please do not put words onto my keyboard. I appreciate the hard work that goes into providing us all a place to race.

To say I have no idea how much information is out there is pretty rude. Many websites have results pages that are posted after festivals, other links are available online that archive past fesitvals with results. I am aware that there are tons of informaiton out there and it is hard to sift through all of it. I guess a better way is to say that mistakes are sometimes made and it is nice to try to avoid as many as possible by using available resources to seed teams for their races.

As for Victoria, I think it is a well run festival but could do with improvements....as can ALL festivals. It is only with improvements that paddlers want will festivals survive, because with the number of events growing each year, those that don't attract teams will surely die.

I would love to see Victoria bring in a lane / buoy system like Kelowna. Let us not forget that a few teams finished out of their lane despite all those nice big markers. Also, the cost involved to set up a rowing style course would be so high that entrance fees would skyrocket end exclude a lot of teams. It is good to want to improve festivals but we neeed to be realistic. That sort of course is necessary for a WCC Championship where the whole world comes and a lot is on the line...but for a weekend festival?

I guess if some paddlers are so high-calibre that they need perfectly roped off lanes so they can maintain a course and not collide, need flat calm perfect basin-water to paddle, and instant digital replay with olympic stopwatches on each boat and sensors at the finish line, then they will have to find that "Ultimate Festival" that exists somewehere in a perfect universe.

[/quote]

[Tex Messenger]

Hi Army

Well reasoned arguements and good observations.

I think you are more objective than some, here.

Alcan is not perfect, but it IS significant.

With far more venues now, it can only be expected that many teams will feel they can have more enjoyment or better spend their money elsewhere. That's the beauty of CHOICE.

Guido tends to be very critical of other venues and can be a bit geocentric.

He is defensive, as he has been involved in the Alcan officiating for many years.
However, he no longer has a position there and may not have all the facts.

In fact he had his own very vocal beefs on this forum about 2005 ALCAN.

Alcan will be run differently this year, it may be worth a look.

Cheers,

Tex

[magicpaddler]

Ok
I have only been to Alcan as a spectator and raced in Vic once.  From what I could tell the Alcan festival could use some work around the festival side, the racing in Vic was awesome the year I was there, but then I am not on a comp team.

As far as teams from Calgary or Edm going to Alcan going to Alcan and being competitive that is always going to be a stretch based on the fact that the festival is in June and we can't get on the water till mid to end of May (not so much practice time avail).  Once we get to say Aug or Sept we are much more competitive as we have had more time on the water, thus you will see very few teams from Alberta at Alcan where you see more in Vic.   

As for Calgary teams being Rec B or silver/bronze for competitiveness lets look at the practice time differences.  As mentioned earlier we only get on the water in mid may (west coast team start in Feb or Mar??).  Due to our practice location (the Glenmore Res, Calgary's drinking water) the City restricts the # of practice sessions available, thus most teams may get 1 practice a week if they are lucky.  So we are now comparing teams that start practicing in Feb vs May and teams that have 2-3 practices a week vs maybe 1 (.75  More likely)  Take all that into account and I think the Calgary teams to dam good against the Van/Vic teams by the time we get to Kelowna.

Lets move onto the Calgary Festival.  Yes the past few years the officiating has sucked (this is being fixed as there are current negotiations between the Kelowna officials and Calgary, this should fix that) , but the Festival part this past year blew Van and Vic's out of the water, the Course is better then any on the west coast.

hell I am just at these festivals to paddle my ass off and have as much fun as humanly possible (and make the odd stupid bet, still paying off those beers for Pac Reach).



My 2 cents

[zephyrantes]

paddleho, ARMY, non-delusional paddlers, disgruntled VI paddlers: I must be delusional.   But I wonder if you are also the type of person who's whined at the workplace to get a raise or promotion <ahem> (no pun intended, ARMY).   Just so that I stay on topic.. you're all absolutely right and correct.  You DON'T count.. stay home.