[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

 

Dragon Boat Canada


IDBF


Canoe Kayak Canada

199 Guests, 0 Users

[DBWTim]

I was having lunch with a friend and we were discussing the state of the general competitiveness of the "sport" in the Vancouver. There is a general lack of competition in dragonboat in the area...especially when you take a look at out East. I can't say that it's always been like this or not, but I do remember years when it was tough to crack into comp. You had to actually train on the water and in the gym to make it as a Comp team. Nowadays it seems like any tom, **** or harry can do it. It could be that the paddlers on the current teams are better paddlers than those of  past years. That's open to discussion, but personally I don't think so.

I have to say that the competitions really watered down over here... with the vast majority of the teams paddling around the Creek just looking for a good time. This could be because the average dragon boater in Vancouver doesn't care for the community and just sees it as something to do. To them it's an activity and not a sport. I don't think it helps that most of the major races over here are called "Festivals", giving the notion that the races are just sideshow attractions. For example, I hope Alcan realizes that it's the paddlers that bring in the vast majority of their ticket sales with friends and families watching the races. Sorry to say it but that's the entertainment that people come for... not for what's on the stage.

Another example would be the infamous Gemini's. These are race-certified boats that only technically-sound can paddle that False Creek clubs brought in to boost the skill level in the Creek (yeah, I know it might be a stretch...). Instead of bucking down and working on technique, the majority of the teams are on the verge of rioting (still...) and ready to tar and feather the people responsible. Let's see... race in boats that we are all comfortable with but have extreme variations on how  each one goes through the water? Or race in boats that were deemed for racing by the international governing body were boat performance is standard across the fleet?

Am I saying the East has it better out there? For breeding competition, I would say yes. They have more races available to them and with larger pool of comp teams to cut their teeth on. I certainly would think that FCRCC Mixed, Pac Reach and the other Comp A teams would be better if they had more teams of their caliber to race against on a frequent basis. I could also just chalk it up to the whole West Coast stereotype that we're more laidback in general, while they're always on the go.

Maybe that's why the East doesn't take the West very seriously (Jing_Du, am I correct in this assumption?). Some people may argue that they have a larger population-base to work from out East but how do we explain the Island teams?

The Island with Victoria in particular, probably produces more competitive teams, numbers-wise than the Lower Mainland. In Vancouver's defense, we have too much to do here and people get involved with other sports....

I guess I should address Paddleho and her/his mention that she/he wanted to keep topics to "fun and  discussions of west coast paddling gossip instead of letting things deteriorate into personal jabs and insider personal references." You have to consider that the vast majority of this forum are coming from the same Mid-Low Rec community that I just indirectly addressed. They probably don't have the knowledge or interest to post anything of interest. It's only been recently that more of the "Higher Ups" have been coming here and some of these people either don't have the time like Alcan Registrar.

I'm aware that many people in the community know who I am... and I'll probably get some flack for what I've just said... Before I get jumped on by the whole community.. Do I think the Comp Teams are weak? No, but I just think they would be better if there were more of them. Also, I just want to clear up this connotation that we are the Mecca of Dragonboat... I would consider this the Land of the Lotus Eaters more...

Now let's see the maturity level on this forum... the pot is being stirred.

[tiger]

Mr. Chaos that must have been one long lunch  

Unfortunately my thoughts did not occur over lunch but here are some.

One thing I have noticed over the last few years is that the stronger paddlers have disbursed into many teams thus the most competitive teams have been watered down since they do not draw the cream anymore.  With the disbursement the middle of the road teams have gained some experience and have moved up a division (or 2).

Another point to think about is we are not drawing the younger crowd in or if we are then they are the party animals.  If you look at a number of the "competitive" teams the paddlers are close to or over 40 years of age.  There should be a crop of 20 somethings that should be able to displace the oldtimers but that has not happened (maybe Team Success this year will master Alcan?)

If it continues we will soon have a larger Senior's division than the open division.

With the kayak/canoe clubs getting DBs now we may see more competitive younger teams as the kayak clubs have a younger clientele.  It will take a couple of years but I think they will be the Mississaugas of the west.  Once this happens we will be just like the east, flatties against pure DB teams who are better?

[Lethal Weapon]

Whoa!
Tell it like it is brother!
Being a fairly new member of the DB community I noticed that the FC DB paddlers are quite cliquey and that they will pretty much stick with their "elite" buddies to paddle with. Tiger hit the nail on the head when he mentioned that the elite paddling clubs are 40+ and that there are no really young teams picking up the slack.(except maybe Ruckus and FODB but they aren't COMP A yet..) AS for Flatties against True DBers racing I would put my money down on the Flat water paddlers. It comes down to conditioning (Methods) as opposed to strategies and style. Their training methods (as with OC paddlers as well) are quite different than DB paddlers. I started DB and OC at the same time so based upon my experiences the OC training methods were far superior in building power and stamina then the traditional DB methods. Its no surprise winners of the big festivals also paddle in OC or other small boats. I think a NCCP Level 3 or higher flat water or canoe coach would have a better understanding of the training methods to produce better paddlers as they have to under go a certification process which involves an understanding of the human anatomy and methods on how to fully optimize performance. Their methods would go a long way in helping dbers train more effeciently as opposed to the standard cookie cutter type drills and ladders.  While DB only has a level I certification(beginners and Novices) it would be good if the more experienced coaches shared their knowledge openly and let the newer coaches draw upon their expertise and incorporate it into their styles. Put 20 OC paddlers in a DB and I am pretty sure they will beat a lot of teams that only train in DBs
(Ie: see "Beat Pete " last year in the men’s and the combined OC team that came in second in Diamond @ Kelowna with only one practice in a DB)
I'm not saying lets get out of the DBS and jump in OCs but I think to regain our competitive edge (not that we lost it..) we in Creek have to be more open and not pigeon hole ourselves.
Change is good!

[Jing_Du]

Back east, dragon boat racing is still not a full-fledged "Sport" yet, despite DB festivals having started back there in 1989, 3 years after DBs were introduced to Canada on False Creek at Expo 86.  (The first race out here was held WEST of the Cambie Bridge, which was brand new, as was the Skytrain.)

By "Sport" (vs. "sport") I mean "amateur sport" - which implies standardized rules, authentic "race officials" trained in their roles, discipline as to "roster" membership, and "league play", standard racing distances and equipment, etc. - just like any other organized, amateur sport.

DB "festival racing" lacks all of the above, east and west (and in the USA as well.)   Festivals set their own rules and prepare (or otherwise) their own officials; use whatever boat is the most convenient for them.  They may or may not have a good set of on water safety practices, it varies, because there are no regulations governing who can rent boats and start up a race (unlike sailing sport, canoeing sport, hockey, gymnastics, etc.)

Festivals need crews willing to pay big bux to participate.  That deserves repeating: festivals are not viable unless paddlers voluntarily enter and pay race fees to cover the costs, pay salaries and even have cash left over cash to donate to charities, year after year.  They provide services and entertainment to participants.  But they do not promote "the Sport"; never have, and probably never will.  But that is where all the paddlers' disposible income ends up, in the hands of the festivals they patronize.

In Halifax, Sport Nova Scotia races money for provincial sport by running a big race on Lake Banook in September.  In Victoria, Foundation 2000+ raises revenues from paddling (dragon boat) and rowing, which it then spends somehow.  So coast to coast, the multi-million dollar Canadian dragon boat "industry" (festivals, boat builders, paddler makers, event management companies, charities, Breast Cancer Survivors, etc.) are not putting a dime into the development of the Sport of DB racing.... they like things the way they are, deriving sponsorship and race entry fee revenues for whatever purposes their private interests and causes dictate or see fit.

Then there is "sport racing", which exists at the international level (IDBF) but not at the Canadian National, Provincial or Local levels (although club crew racing has been taking root in Ontario and Quebec since 2001.)

That post about a DB league - was inspired by something that started in Toronto several years ago, Summer Sizzler and Summer Sensation.  These two SS programs catered to league racing.  Apparently FCRCC is too "burnt out" to organize something this year (according to the most recent post on the matter) however IT IS NOT DIFFICULT TO ORGANIZE (provided there are some boats available.) and would only need a handful of volunteers to run.

SeaVancouver, Portland, Victoria, Kelowna, Taiwanese DB races, etc.... these are great fun for the paddling masses.  But there is no BC DB Championships. There easily could be however.  It would have to start small then gradually develop each season.

Problem is that your major DB event out here occurs in June, which is the beginning of the summer paddling season.  That is like playing the Stanley Cup in November !

Apparently the serious competitive paddlers end up crossing over to Outrigger, where they train when the weather's great.  DB trains mostly in the spring when its cold and soggy out here.

For all the complaints about Geminis' just be thankful that you are not having to train and compete in the teak wooden boats (of same length and width and number of seats, but triple the weight.)  Just be thankful you have a half decent festival, a caring race committee and some boats of relatively matched characteristics to go out and have some not "too serious" fun in.

The comp division today is nothing like it was when crews were training to compete in Hongkong in the mid-80s through mid-90s.  Now that all the major serious paddling has gravitated to the east (for a wide variety of reasons, including access to more corporate sponsorship, larger population, much higher technical standard and depth, more suitable focus, competitive orientation due to exposure to flatwater, more venues within easy driving distance, etc.) it will take a minor miracle probably to jump start any kind of true sporting critical mass, but if enough people were to want to move beyond being weekend warriors and festival roadies, then through diligence and committment it could happen.  I say this because it's already been done before, but not for quite a while.

[BernMan]

I wanted to say what an awesome job of putting your words down to both Chaos and Jing-Du. I can not add anything more than what has already been said by both of you. Congrats!

Unfortunately I don't have any eastern experience or exposure but I would like to believe that what both of you say has some validity to it. Hopefully someone with passion about our sport can round up enough of us to get this done right once and for all. That is not to say that I am complaining about how things are run out here but not having experienced what you are all talking about how am I supposed to know that it could be better.

Once again KUDOS to you both for saying what you have. I know my eyes are wide open now!

[paddleboy]

I  raced in Montreal last yr and I think our comp teams are on par with the east . I think this year the upper comp teams would & will give the east a very very good race .

 I also agree with some that has been said. To make a good comp team you need desire ,drive and commitment .For the most part to have a sucessful comp A team ,the crew needs to have all have the same desires and goals and eat,sleep,drink paddling (hence me,lol). There are just too many teams out here where the teams cannot even fill a boat on most practice nites and thats sad. I order to become better ....a team needs to gel and work/train together and this means gym time as well as water time and attending all practices . Too show commitment ..........in the last 2 yrs ( we train all yr round) I have never missed a practice (up to 4 days a wk) even if I was sick like death warmed over or 1 time I went straight from the hospital (after 3 days in) and straight to practice and I have also trained in -9 weather all because I have goals,made a commitment and respect my team .This is what it takes to succeed and make a very good comp team

 I can remember when I was on a Rec A team that won gold in Alcan, it was hard to get everyone to commit to practice and the excuses were brutal.The team cared more about drinking and parties than it ever did about winning and they had the power to move up but the captain kept telling the team over and over it's not about winning but to just go out and have fun .I can remember in one race I got spared because they said I was "way too competitive" ( which I am ) and to teach me a lesson they sat me out for 1 race .The team lost some of it's key paddlers the following yr and went from rec A gold to rec c lower end and all because of the team attitude/outlook .

 The upper comp teams are mainly over the age of 35 and this gives maturity & better commitment that is required .Look at the grand dragons  who are over 50 and can easily take out the majority of teams on the water today .They are serious but have fun,they train hard and put the nec time in the gym as well to better themselves .Rec teams should look at teams like this ,you can have fun and train hard as well it's all about goals and commitments .

 I think in the beginning of a teams yr they need to lay out better ground rules and commitment expectations otherwise they will continue to just get people who show up every other pratice and miss weeks on end .............this leads sometimes to dispise amongst the crew who really want to move up but are held up by the few who don't care .Been there ,done that

 my 2 cents ................I love paddling  

[Jing_Du]

You guys are, what, in your mid-late 20s ?  Paddlers like you,
you are the future of dragon boat racing on False Creek,
just the fact that you are contributing to this forum and
asking questions, being open minded and skeptical.

There needs to be, periodically, "p*** and vinegar",
people who want something badly and are not satisfied
with the (stagnant) status quo.  Discontent breeds
growth and innovation and change.  That has been
the course of human history at least.  Take a look at
who is "running" the local DB scene at present, the
"powers that be" and their generation of cronies.
They have developed DB in the image and vision that
THEY see it as.  They didn't get into their positions
suddenly overnight, it was years in the making.
Eventually they will "retire" and some others will
take over the reins.

The gang at FCRCC goes through periodic episodes
of revolution and upheaval (followed by burnout).
Just like any club, association or group.  This summer
you need to talk it up amongst yourselves, "what do
you want" (more than what you have already.)  Get
a group of people together who are "hungry" to go
after it.  Get help from people with experience and
learn from past history as well.  That is how the
fesitval started.  That is how FCRCC started.  That
is how Dragon Zone started. It requires political
skills and money, but it IS possible to get what you
want if you are organized and work smart.  But if
nobody wants it very badly, then be prepared to live
with what you have. When DB started there was only
faxes, not ICQ, email, websites, forums and other
means for likeminded people to connect.  The times
never been better for taking up the challenge and
going after whatever it is you would all like to see.
People in the east and other places are doing just
that.  So don't be satisfied with the present set up.

[paddleboy]

ummm............lets just say some of us are over 35 & 40 that have posted . And of those over 35 & 40  ,we are all on comp a teams

 My drive and fitness level are better now than when I was younger.I train up to 4 times a week on the water (race both db & oc ) and 4 times a week for up to 2 hrs in the gym and thats on top of my 9 hr days at work and I still have time to go out and party w/ friends .See .....I have goals and a vision of where I want to go and at this point I'm not letting anything hold me back.This is what it takes to really succeed on a comp team . Like I said I have great respect for my team and it's goals but I would love to see more competition out there to push teams to get even better in the comp divisions . Too many teams on the water are short sighted and never look into the future they can only see this season .

 Teams need to set goals as to where they want to go in the future yrs and what they want to accomplish.Not many teams do that and thats why we have what we do today . Look into the future and try to set goals for like 2006 ,2008,2010 and beyond.Where do you want your team to be ........always a rec team or move up every yr . You need to develop a good core group of paddlers that will stay w/ the team and grow .Keep them happy and they will stay and give your crew a vision and goal that they can see and reach and that will give them the drive .
 
 Anyway all I have to say is teams need to move beyond their short sightedness and look beyond and into the future and set some real goals for the team . You also need to have a very knowledgeable coach to help the team grow .If more teams took this attitude than this sport would really take off and we will have some awesome racing .So coaches and managers ..................look into the future not just this season and give your crew some true obtainable goals .........

[zephyrantes]

$.

you want to see this sport become more competitive or "serious"?   Throw bigger named tobacco and/or alcohol sponsors in there which are willing to get in to the game.

[turtle_turtle]

This could be because the average dragon boater in Vancouver doesn't care for the community and just sees it as something to do.

Dragon Boat really just hasn't been emphasized as much here, at least not as much as other sports, through newspapers, TV, and radio. I mean, every year, around the same time, you might hear a few ads about the festival and that's it. The festival. Not the sport. People don't really know what the sport is about.

And a less important side note I have to comment on what you said about teams looking at this as an activity, not a sport, I've noticed many who join for wrong and stupid reasons. i.e. "My arms and tummy and legs look fat. This activity can fix that right up!" *ahem* if you don't want your body parts to jiggle when you run, lay off the chips and junk food.  

Having said that, there are some that are more passionate about the sport than others.

Another example would be the infamous Gemini's. These are race-certified boats that only technically-sound can paddle that False Creek clubs brought in to boost the skill level in the Creek (yeah, I know it might be a stretch...). Instead of bucking down and working on technique, the majority of the teams are on the verge of rioting (still...) and ready to tar and feather the people responsible. Let's see... race in boats that we are all comfortable with but have extreme variations on how  each one goes through the water? Or race in boats that were deemed for racing by the international governing body were boat performance is standard across the fleet?

Gemini's are awesome boats. And yes, they force paddlers to emphasize on technique. Though, I must say, smaller paddlers benefit more in these boats.  

[Waterbunny]

Paddle Boy... you were sat out because you were annoying your teammates too much.  If their focus was so poor.. then why did they win the Rec A Gold medal anyway?  As for the following years results - That team welcomed many first time paddlers last year - just like they welcomed YOU the year before so maybe you can keep that in mind the next time you trash the team that got you started in the first place.  Thanks.

"I can remember when I was on a Rec A team that won gold in Alcan, it was hard to get everyone to commit to practice and the excuses were brutal.The team cared more about drinking and parties than it ever did about winning and they had the power to move up but the captain kept telling the team over and over it's not about winning but just have fun .I can remember in one race I got spared because they said I was "way too competitive" and to teach me a lesson they sat me out for 1 race .The team lost some of it's key paddlers the following yr and went from rec A gold to rec c lower end and all because of the captain & team attitude/outlook ."

[paddleboy]

Hey Waterbunny    Not trashing you guys just telling the truth . I was way too competitve for the team and that annoyed some of you and thats why I moved on .Why do you think some of us left and you had a bunch of new paddlers the following yr ? You guys never had the want or desire to step it up and were/are more worried about staying up all nite and drinking but hey thats cool ,we paid the price in Kelowna that yr ( we should have won ) .  

Again I'm not trashing the team as I have no reason to ..... we just have have/had different goals .That team has alot of potential but it's held back by those who have different views and I guess ..........lives ,lol. You guys have the potential to win Rec A ( which is now comp C )again but you need better commitment from the crew. I see the e-mails going back and forth saying I can't make this and I can't make that ,thats hurts a team like yours from getting better ..........geez ,you guys only train once a week(how hard is that to make ) .I know the motto of the team was and is to have fun at all costs .

 This is forum is about the state of dragonboat and how to make it better like it is out east . I'm just showing some of the attitudes and outlooks that prevent teams from getting better and making it more competitive .

[Waterbunny]

My impression from this train of emails was that you were discussing the level of  'competitiveness' in Vancouver vs East.  Some  were concerned about not having enough 'serious' teams in Vancouver and that the spirit of competition may be fading....  

You used your first team as a comparison so you opened the door as far as I'm concerned.

On the vein of keeping things focused on 'competition'...

Somewhere in this train I saw some comments to the effect that there may be too many 'fun' teams on the water in Vancouer in general compared to East..  

Everyone has to start somewhere.  Most people wouldn't qualify to make it on a 'competitive' team their first (or second) time out so they need a place to start.  If there were only 'competitive' level teams, the interest in the sport would probably dwindle.

 If you want to raise the level of competition in Vancouver, and you want to see more competitive/serious teams in Vancouver, and you want to kick but back east - then  Start another team, bring them back east and show them how it's done..  

  Be careful not to discourage others.   You need to have some 'fun' teams in order to introduce new blood into the sport.  This is their learning ground.  

Consider the time we spent with you (for example)  as our contribution to the competitive teams.  You were able to get your paddle wet and the time you spent with the team helped make you a better paddler for the competitive team.

I think you should re-read your email.  Your 'thoughts' really were trashing the team - mostly the Captain.  I think you owe him an apology (if he even reads this forum..)

vj

[paddleboy]

V , I'm NOT(read NOT) trashing the team or the captain just repeating what was always the case (sorry if it reads the wrong way).The captain wants it to be fun and not taken too serious and it wasn't about winning it was about having fun (does he not always say that ?) .How's that trashing the capt or the team ? You know I could go deep here but I'm not and I'm going to leave this alone .

 You guys have a great team ,like I said, w/ great potential but  lack the commitment and desire to do what your capable of . Prove me wrong this yr .................step up and make it to Comp C again ........you have the potential you just need the commitment and desire . This is not trashing you ,I would love to see you guys go all the way again and be on the podium in Alcan

 I will always thk the team for accepting me and giving me a start , I had fun but like I said I'm very competitve and take racing very very serious ,as you know (thats what annoyed you remember) . I have found my place now and am part of a great team who truely has that desire ,focus and makes the commitment to be the best we can every time .
 
 Anyway good luck in Alcan and all your races this yr ......paddle hard I know you guys have it .............just use it and focus and you will succeed

[baoser]

This is a very interesting post, especially for me, a young newbie of the sport and someone who's interested in its development.

About the competitive level of the dragon boat sports scene, I'd like to offer a different take on why we're not as competitive as in the east.

The reason: culture. Or rather, takes on how life should be lived and enjoyed. It comes down to this question: Is it the journey or the destination? Or a bit of both?

Out east, especially in Toronto, it's about competition, bottom line and outcomes. Toronto is like New York: the financial capital of Canada, where most of the major companies are located. Over there, life is fast paced, rushed, and stressful (not to say it's not like that in Vancouver or anywhere else, but definitely more so in TO).

Out here, we're more laid back. We enjoy skiing, the beach, the water and the mountains. We got more nature and because of that, we're more laid back, and thus, not as competitive as the East.

As a newbie paddler, the reason why I joined Dragonboat is because it's fun, promotes an active lifestyle, and advances social and community interactions. The competition is important, because without it, you sink to mediocrity. However, it's definitely not the top reason why I paddle. I'd say it's maybe 4th or 5th on my priority level.

Perhaps this will change in the future, but for now, the journey has been really good, and even if my team places 5th place at Alcan, it wouldn't matter to me. It comes back to that question: is it the journey or the destination?

I've been in situations where it's all about outcomes, all about destination. I find these situations aren't satisfying. It's akin to travelling: you can go on a tour bus and see all the great landmarks in a city, but the real memories aren't taking a snapshot of you infront of the Eiffel Tower or what have you. Instead, what you'll remember are the people, their personalities, the laughs and moments you shared, and how they made you feel.

For me, this summer's been about the journey, and I wouldn't have it any other way.