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Dragon Boat Canada


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Canoe Kayak Canada

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[DBWTim]

Anyone know how the Save-on Dragonslayers did-Richmond is slow at printing the race results

The Dragonslayers actually came third in Blue C based on the official results... so 11th overall.

Perhaps it wasn't up to the calibre of some of the more professional teams, but the event felt like a grassroots event done up to the best of their ability and on a tight budget.

The only problem with that statement is that Richmond shouldn't feel like a grassroots event since this is their 4th year. Plus it's run by GO Row, formerly Foundation 2000plus. These are the same organizers that have been running the Victoria Festival (Victoria is celebrating their 11th year as a festival. I'm not sure if Foundation 2000 was running their festivals from the beginning though) and they run the major rowing events around the capital region and the lower mainland. Which brings attention to why they did not use their timing equipment from their other events for Richmond. Unless they don't have the equipment, but considering the calibre of their other events I find it very unlikely.

Personally I don't even want to comment on the Blue A Final picture since it will probably be beaten like a dead horse soon. But just to humour everyone... let's look at the picture... First, we all know that the wood pilings were the reference points for the finish line (whether the first or the second is another question). Second, we know based on the times throughout the day, we can see the current changed from against the boats to with the boats (sorry teams.. you didn't get better as you advanced). Also, we know that the tide dropped as the day went on, leading to more slack on the anchor lines on the finish line buoys. Based on these assumptions we can say that the finish line buoys are being pushed well past the true finish line. What does all this mean? Absolutely nothing. Why is that? Because there's in nothing official to refer to. Hell, we could pretty much say that GPRC United (Sorry, just drawing names off the top of my head) should have won the final. I know that a gross overstatement but the problem is there. There is no record of the actual event other than a piece of paper. Unfortunately, that piece of paper loses it's validity once they take a couple of them down and replace it with another one a few minutes later (I'm referring to the Red Semi 4 and Blue Semi 1 results that were posted initially with SFU Dragonbytes coming first in the Red Semi and ScotiaDragons coming first in the Blue).

In regards to the finish line set up. I have done finish line for dragon boat regattas in the past. Here's the deep dark secret to how most finish lines are done. Yes, there is a setup where we set up a string with a weight at the end that would represent the finish line. Yes, there is a stopwatch for each lane. There is a radio going from the startline to the finish line. When you hear "go" or the "horn" or whatever they use to start, the timer will hit start on their stopwatch. The timer will then sit there for however long it takes the race to reach near the finish line before eyeballing when the front of the boat crossed the "string" and then hits stop on the stopwatch. As you can tell.. a lot of things can go wrong. Ideally, there is one timer for each stopwatch for each boat (which makes me wonder how the three timers at Richmond did the 4 and 5 boat heats). Ideally, the timers will stand behind the line to minimize the discrepency in perspective. For an example... try looking at an object... close one eye... now look at the object with just the other eye... (wow... it moved!!) Based on this example, it really makes me worry about how the Richmond finish line did  it with three timers sitting side by side...

Unfortunately there is little much teams can do about this. They can complain till they're blue in the face but that will not change anything. To the people telling them to suck it up and stop whining. It's not about the fact that they lost. It's more of the circumstances... the festival left a large amount of doubt in their minds as to what really happened.  And everything about the festival points to a lack of accountability with the changing race grids, "strange" starts and mysterious results that get changed. If the organizers were able to back up what was posted up, then everyone would be happy. Instead, they were told to the tone of, "too bad, so sad. We'll see you next year" when the topic was brought up to them.

However the organizers must realize that this is much like retail. A happy customer will be more than likely to return. With an unhappy customer, even though you already have their money, you probably won't be seeing them again. Am I saying that the medals should be redistributed? No, that bridge has already been crossed and the damage has already been done.
I have already heard many people say that they will never enter an event that is run by GO Row...

As everyone on here knows, I have always been encouraging the sport of dragon boating to develop into a true sport and it's been great to see that the number of festivals has been increasing by leaps and bounds over the past years. People are saying that it's because of a tight budget that they could not get the proper equipment but this is an organization that has over 10 different paddling and rowing centres around BC... for an organization this size, I would hopefully expect to see it run a race like Richmond with more legitimacy.

Enough typing.. time for bed...

[Colossus]

if any paddler who won a medal that they knew they didn't rightfully win actually came forward and said, "i know i didn't win this medal fairly, so i don't want it", i'd have to give them huge kudos.  will anyone do that?  not sure.  i know i would.  but i've got an overly large conscious and like to earn what i get.

[Magnum]

There are so many ways to interpret that type of picture.  If you take the following scenario, for example, which assumes the far bouy is accurate and the near bouy has drifted then the results confirm what the officials are saying.

 

[Ronnie]

Based on your scenario that the far buoy is in the correct place and that the inner buoy (by lane 1) is the one that's drifted, since the current was going out with the boats, then boat 1 already passed the finished line.

And don't take this personal cause we know your team paddled hard and did well during the festival.  You guys posted consistent fast times throughout the day.

However, Magnum, that's the whole point of having an official photo finish.  There is no room for misinterpretation if the event was done professionally.

[DBWTim]

There are so many ways to interpret that type of picture.  If you take the following scenario, for example, which assumes the far bouy is accurate and the near bouy has drifted then the results confirm what the officials are saying.

 

*yawn* I really need my coffee for this one... I must say though that all these "picture" analysis means absolutely nothing... but I have to admit that it's interesting seeing how people can interpret a single picture.

Magnum, there is a certain flaw in your scenario. Based on your lines, you are saying that the near buoy drifted short of the finish line. It has been stated before that the boats were paddling with the current by the time the final race was run, therefore if the buoys were to have drifted they would be past the true finish line, not before.

[Chris]

sorry, Steamrollers Moaner, you know I'm a Steamrollers and Little Boat fan and I wouldn't argue with you unless I was sure, but I'd call the placing the same way the officials did.  I was standing at the finish line tent.  Boats 1 and 2 were neck and neck for 3rd and 4th from what I could see.  So from your picture, if you could draw a line from the nose or tail of 1 and 2, Boat 4 was in the lead and Boat 3 was second.

..... just don't want the Little Boaters to feel cheated of anything.

[Magnum]

Based on your scenario that the far buoy is in the correct place and that the inner buoy (by lane 1) is the one that's drifted, since the current was going out with the boats, then boat 1 already passed the finished line.

And don't take this personal cause we know your team paddled hard and did well during the festival.  You guys posted consistent fast times throughout the day.

However, Magnum, that's the whole point of having an official photo finish.  There is no room for misinterpretation if the event was done professionally.

I don't understand you comment about current?  In the last race we were still dealing with a downstream current.  The tide may have been less of a factor but the boats were definitely not drifting upstream at any point during the day.  You only had to watch the debris floating down the river late in the afternoon to confirm this.

Regarding the value of an official photo finish I completely agree. All this discussion would be a mute point if it existed.

[Lethal Weapon]

It si really a bummer when:

1. there is no official Finishing line Photo
2. No one knows where the finish line really is
3. there is controversy to end an otherwise good day of racing.

Being witness to the same fiasco in Kelowna in the final race last year it is difficult even with the finish line cameras to see the clear winners (especially if the final shot is blurred or very grainy)
Having previously seen the kick ass finish of Extreme reach and the other teams in the finals (First race this year I missed doing the spouse thing! Oh Well) why don't they all head down to Victoria the week before the Victoria 13th race and settle it in the Victoria island champions in the gorge on the 6th. Same GO club except they have the finish line cameras there and no crazy current.
1 day event where it can be settled on the water! THAT would be a great rerace. Onlyone day event and pretty cheap as well!

http://www.f2000p.org/programs_events/vi_championships.php?id=5&press=1&draw_column=3:3:2

1 day race, Great beer tent (I mean reallly great) And a smooth running controversy free event!
Magnum knows about this baby! GO Absolut!

[tiger]

There are so many ways to interpret that type of picture.  If you take the following scenario, for example, which assumes the far bouy is accurate and the near bouy has drifted then the results confirm what the officials are saying.

 

If I take your finish line then the start line was very much off since they did not line up with that much offset.  Remember I looked at how they did the starts, did you?  There was very little offset between the lanes at the start, which means the finish should have very little offset. So again it comes back to the organizers, either they had a race course set up so that lane 3 and 4 raced about 25 metres less than lane 1 or they had terrible finish line officiating.  In the end, some teams have slightly tarnished medals and unfortunately I think Xtreme Reach is one of them.

[tnrogers]

Hi there Everyone, This was my first year attending this particular festival, and I would just like to say that I for one, had a great time in Richmond...

I find the negative comments on this board regarding the Richmond races somewhat inane because I think we should all be cheering for one another's successes, and encouraging those that didn't perform as well as they wanted to....

Slamming GO & the race volunteers is not the way to resolve anything - sometimes tides or currents/race official perspectives/dragon boat condition/and team dynamics etc etc work for us, and sometimes against us...but these things should still be part of the fun and excitement that Dragon Boating is supposed to be all about!

So for all the sour pusses out there, please just relax.....you too will get your *bling-bling* one day! Tara

PS - Thanks to all the GO volunteers! You all did a great job!

[Magnum]

If I take your finish line then the start line was very much off since they did not line up with that much offset.  Remember I looked at how they did the starts, did you?  There was very little offset between the lanes at the start, which means the finish should have very little offset. So again it comes back to the organizers, either they had a race course set up so that lane 3 and 4 raced about 25 metres less than lane 1 or they had terrible finish line officiating.  In the end, some teams have slightly tarnished medals and unfortunately I think Xtreme Reach is one of them.

It is unlikely this photo was taken at or near the finish line tent.  Logically, if you take the two sets of pilings  on the opposite side of the river (one on the shore and one in the water) and extend a line between the two of them you will get a line that is perpendicular to the shore that goes straight across the river.

[Ronnie]

The photo was in fact taken by someone who stood to the immediate left of the tent (facing the race course).

[tiger]

If I take your finish line then the start line was very much off since they did not line up with that much offset.  Remember I looked at how they did the starts, did you?  There was very little offset between the lanes at the start, which means the finish should have very little offset. So again it comes back to the organizers, either they had a race course set up so that lane 3 and 4 raced about 25 metres less than lane 1 or they had terrible finish line officiating.  In the end, some teams have slightly tarnished medals and unfortunately I think Xtreme Reach is one of them.

It is unlikely this photo was taken at or near the finish line tent.  Logically, if you take the two sets of pilings  on the opposite side of the river (one on the shore and one in the water) and extend a line between the two of them you will get a line that is perpendicular to the shore that goes straight across the river.

You must have sat out that race and was working the finish line  

Anyway you look at it, without an official picture someone will dispute the finish of various races.  It still comes down to what a festival should be doing in this day and age and Richmond (or GO) just don't have it, 3 people sitting side by side is just not what is correct.  Anybody disagree with that?  If so then explain how that can be a valid finish line setup.

As for volunteers, as I stated way back when the dock personnel were good, starts were okay, too bad about the rest though.

[StraightLine]

I can't give Richmond festival two thumbs up, but at the same time the problems weren't to the point where I would say that I was never coming back.

The start line was an improvement over last year.  This year they had the boats lining up in front of the bridge rather than under it.  Last year, we had one race where our lane was in the center channel of the bridge and the wooden bumpers protecting the bridge blocked our line of sight to the starter and the other boats plus it was hard to hear the commands.  

The first 5 or so races this year did not have an air horn for the starting signal so some boats had problems hearing the GO! command.  I was a little surprised that they did not go for more of a running start.  They were trying to line the boats up on a stationary line which given the current resulted in some boats moving backwards at the start.

It was disappointing that the festival reduced the number of divisions this year.  I think 4 or 5 divisions would be more appropriate for this event.

The changes in the number of teams per heat was kind of interesting and messed up the flow of the races a bit.  If the festival is wanting to increase the number of teams attending, they will need to bring a couple more boats.

I won't bother adding to the finish line discussion  

And we will be sending in our comment sheet.

StraightLine

[BernMan]

Slamming GO & the race volunteers is not the way to resolve anything - sometimes tides or currents/race official perspectives/dragon boat condition/and team dynamics etc etc work for us, and sometimes against us...but these things should still be part of the fun and excitement that Dragon Boating is supposed to be all about!

So for all the sour pusses out there, please just relax.....you too will get your *bling-bling* one day! Tara

Ok. I have to add something here because obviously some people are not getting the reason why we come here in the first place.

You may think it is slamming and maybe it is. I will think of it as freedom of expression and speech. Isn't it why this country of ours is a wonderful place to live?

I would like to think that in this day and age of modern technology some of the lovely people at GO would know about this website and would go to it and read what people have to say. Did it ever occur to them that maybe people have more courage to say it here rather than submit it in writing? Also did it not occur to them that this way is a lot easier than putting it in writing in some other format and maybe mailing it out or find some way of getting it to them? If you make it too complicated to send feedback then most won't bother.

Too bad I was not there this past weekend but I know some of those on this site personally who are criticizing the people who ran the races and normally they wouldn't make a stink about it unless it was really really bad. So my point is stop defending the organizers because obviously there was something wrong and it should be rectified. A team I am involved with raced there and surely they too were victims but yet enough people have said something so there is no sense in repeating it over and over. If you are going to defend anything make sure you have something to back it up. All those who commented negatively about the racing this past weekend have sufficient evidence - the other racers who were there also! And I think a lot of them may not even be on the same team!

I will say that having a good race management/organization crew running the races is the way to go. I am involved in race management/organization as a water official and things are always consistent so not to leave too many things go wrong. Rules should be the same where ever you race.  Consistency is what we all ask for in DB racing. Don't you think?