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Dragon Boat Canada


IDBF


Canoe Kayak Canada

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[paddleho]

Cool picture. Looks like it was taken about 50 m short of the finish line so it's a little misleading to say the least, but cool picture.

[merc]

What exactly is this photo supposed to tell us?  The finish line was in line with the wooden posts shown in the top left of the photo.  Trace that line across the photo, and suddenly the officials' judgement looks pretty good.

Enough with the sour grapes all ready.  Suck it up.  Train harder for next time.

merc

[woodsman]

My team managed to eke out second in every race we went into, I think...once by about 0.4 sec, one a little more convincing, and the last to Alpha Dragons by 0.2....all in all, we had a great week-end.   Did we protest or complain?  No....we figured our start sucked and our course was bad, and we had no great finish....Alpha was very good, as were the other teams we lost to...such is racing.

Being from Victoria, it seems to me that starts, almost by definition, at Richmond were weird due to tide and current -- just barely get set, if you were waiting for such, then go.....so?  Such is the race.  We got surprised a couple of times...whose fault is that?  I think - ours.

Overall, I think Richmond was fun, we had a great time!  I guess many of the really "good" teams don't go there because it has such transient conditions.....yet those conditions make it fun.  The teams in the final deserved to be there...all were awesome.

I would like to thank the Richmond organizers for a really fun, albeit long, day....we had a blast!  

I guess my major comment is  -- next year, when we come, can we reserve a site a little closer to the docks?  I had to shower several times to get my feet clean from the dust    Alternatively, get the path paved.

It was fun.... after Nanaimo, a good prelim for the VI and Victoria festivals...rematches are free  

[Angus]

The morning races were pretty cool to watch. Many boats were moving at a crawl because of the current despite everyone paddling furiously.
It was an enjoyable day in a pleasant place. The volunteers were friendly and were (in my opinion) the nicest group of dock and race marshalls I've seen all season, so I'm not going to complain... unlike certain other races  

Perhaps it wasn't up to the calibre of some of the more professional teams, but the event felt like a grassroots event done up to the best of their ability and on a tight budget.

Don't worry if your highly ranked team didn't do as well as you think it should have. We all still respect you.

[zephyrantes]

merc: maybe you can educate the rest of us who view that picture a little differently than you.   There are a couple of programs easily accesible to the average person which would allow you to "draw" the finish line onto that picture.  

Each boat in that picture depicts that each boat was still fighting to the end, or at the very least paddling to some measure of capacity.   None of those boats are drifting, nor are they merely "cruising".   What does that tell me?   That the finish line is still to be crossed, and from what ever perspective (be it the wooden post, buoys, tent) you choose to make the finish line, there is no doubt that for the last "50 meters" (as indicated by paddleho), Little Boat was in the lead.  

As for being sour grapes that should train harder, I think that maybe you should take some time to educate yourself a little harder when making such an ignorant remark.   This isn't an issue of lack of training, it's an issue of POOR OFFICIATING.   Those guys/gals on that boat (and I'm only going to refer to Little Boat, because its their discrepency) have their own training regime that they stick to; some are more intense than others, some a little less intense.   It was training, nonetheless, enough to get them to where they were, and from that picture, it seems that they've trained hard enough.

Besides, I'd rather have sour grapes over bull**** that lingers and continues to stink.

[tiger]

So from shore some of the results were very questionable.  I watched many of the races and I find it hard to believe some of the results.  The picture posted was one of them.

So if I line up the picture with the wooden posts. I would have to say that lane 1 is already across the "imaginery" finish line.  So to help Merc out I decided to try and figure out where the finish line is if the "official" standings are true.  I watched some of the starts so to judge the finish line you have to know how they started, merc did you do that.

If you look at all of the racers, they are all still paddling hard so I am gathering they have not passed or just have passed the finish line so if that is the case, clearly somebody screwed this one up (but it is not the only race screwed up).

I am not sure but I think the finish line must have been at the half way mark, just my guess?

Now I am not sure how to post my picture with the "finish line(s)" here so if someone can assist I will post with some finish lines and then we can debate where it really is.

There were good points about the festival:

1.  The weather was good (just imagine if it ever rains on this festival, brrrrr).  
2.  The dock crew were good, pleasant, not arrogant.

The bad points:

1.  Not enough boats to run 2 sets of races.  Similar to other years, it did run ahead but that is because they left 25 minutes between races.  25 minutes I could drive all the way to White Rock.  It did guarantee they would end early though.
2.  Finish line was totally unreliable.  I saw races being announced, posted, advancements done and then changed because they caught themselves.  How much confidence can a team(s) have in the process when they can't get things like "sorting" correct (that was an excuse I heard for wrong placements, a monkey can sort 3 times better).
3.  The announcer is useless, most unexciting, "put you to sleep" announcer that you could find.  Hopefully the announcer is volunteering their time cause if they are paid, the festival should put a stop payment on the cheque and refund that money back to the teams.

If you want competitive, top rec teams then you have to have something more than three visually impaired people getting the times.  The last time I was at a festival without video replay capabilities was years ago (except for Richmond).  Even Harrison last week had video and their fees were pretty much the same as Richmond (and it was their first year).

I heard people say after their races; "Better hang around cause there will be a protest of those results" or the classic "Just shut up at least we get a medal".  Even the teams knew they were wrong.  Pretty mickey mouse.  The finish line people should issue an apology to all the teams for the disservice they did.  I would think there will be some teams (down this year already) that will not comeback.  Any team that asks me about Richmond I will say "AVOID RICHMOND as it is a very substandard festival and for the money go out and have a few drinks instead, way less frustrating and a lot more rewarding for team bonding".

UBC is putting a rowing center there, you have to wonder if the same finish line will be used for rowing.  If so then don't expect too many event there as rowers are even less forgiving than DBers.

Well I guess Alcan is not all that bad even with the Geminis   [/img]

[zephyrantes]

I'd rather "lose" the way Little Boat did, than to come home and watch the gold/silver/bronze flake off from a tainted victory.

[Guido]

Can setting off a bomb at the GO Rowing and Paddling(formerly known as Foundation 2000) facility be a choice..perhaps they can claim a camera and some computers as an insurance loss and then use the new ones at their next venue......which I believe is Victoria.

I'm sorry.......I shouldn't talk like that.....I should really feel sorry for the officials.....I mean....with the lack of equipment they had.....it must have been difficult for the finish line with perhaps 6 people in that teeny weeny tent they had to record and time the races effectively.

[Smooth Shaft]

I was not a paddler on any of the teams at yesterday’s races in Richmond but merely a spectator.   In reviewing the posts on this thread, it would appear that if the officials did have a photo finish to rely on, this debate would have been avoided.   I agree that by having paddlers or teams “question the legitimacyâ€� of the official’s judgment is problematic for the “integrityâ€� of the festival.  

For arguments sake, here is the photo posted by “Steamrollers Moanerâ€� with three lines drawn in with various possible finish lines.   With this interpretation, one could argue that the judges’ call may be questionable.   But this is not the official photo and we don’t know where the finish line really was.   Only a photo finish taken by the officials could provide a definitive answer.   This is what Alcan does and I believe if teams want to see the photo finish, it is available upon request.

Telling someone to “suck it up and train harder next timeâ€� will not solve this issue.   The problem is, even if you were to train harder next time, and the final race is close (which they often are in the competitive division) and there is no photo finish to rely on, the same concern will arise again.  

Judging race results without a photo finish can easily lead to errors.  I don’t think it is fair to call the judges monkeys but it did appear that they (I think there were three of them) were sitting side by side.   As such, three different sets of eyes were looking at the finish line from three different perspectives based on the different seating positions they were in.   For the Alcan Festivals, I understand that if the photo equipment system fails, the judges must sit in a position so that their visual line of sight is the same.   This is accomplished by sitting on a ladder (one on top of the other) or a set of stairs.

I think the Richmond festival has the potential to be one of the festivals of choice for teams in the future, especially when the new boathouse is built by UBC.  There seems to be some good constructive comments for improving the Richmond Festival in this thread.   For any paddler or team, whether rec or comp, I think all would agree that you would want to be confident that the officiating was done fairly and competently.  I would not want to see teams boycotting the Richmond race or the calibre of teams drop based on yesterday’s events.

[Backward Rowing]

Ronnie said:

The 2005 Richmond Dragon Boat Festival has come and gone. Unfortunately, this year’s festival made it apparent that there are issues relating to the organization and calibre of officiating.

These issues included late revisions to the race grid due to missing teams who apparently had registered for the festival in advance but were inadvertently left out.

Another concern was the lack of video or camera equipment to record finish line results (unlike Alcan). Instead, three sets of human eyes were used, standing side by side by side to determine placing in a race. Apparently, the finish lines officials are very experienced and can tell which boat is ahead even if there is only less than .2 seconds difference between finish times (this is paraphrasing their own words). This is quite remarkable, considering they are all looking at the finish line from a different angle but all agree on the same result.

The finish line officials were also posting results without any double checking or verification. For instance, in one race, the third place team was put down as first place, while first and second got push to second and third respectively.

The end result is that the way the event was run does not lend confidence to the officiating system.

Race officials must be accountable to paddlers for the races they officiate. Inaccuracies such as those outlined above undermine the integrity of the officiating, races and ultimately, the legitimacy of a festival. For smaller festivals like Richmond to continue to attract competitive teams, it is important that the officiating mechanism is fair and just.

Always interested in hearing from people that want to improve the system.

Here are my two-cents worth:

a) Certification of officials. Doesn't have to be fancy, but something that keeps the the officiating standard.  We all have experiences of mis-starts and collisions being metted out with inconsistent penalties (if any) from race officials.

b) Photofinish based on cameras that can split faster than 42ms as it is possible than that final surge could pull a boat by one seat (the last 16cm)

c) Timing not based on human sight/trigger push but on the boat crossing the finishing line using an electronic sensor.

On the other hand:

a) Keeping event costs down.

b) Other Neptune himself intervening, running starts for some races are inevitable.

[woodsman]

So.........when your team loses, it is never your fault?   Gosh, my little rec team has never considered that.  We could have fun with that....we could appeal every race we lose and annoy just about everyone - regardless of how hard the race venue people worked to make a great weekend of racing.

Sorry, I am old....not in dragon boating, just in age.....have watched my partner race for 6 years and only started paddling myself 3 years ago......but........what is the issue? (by the way, there was a post here awhile ago about what you know after each year of paddling - it was interesting - I am proabably in the "stupid" category.

Pick a festival, go in it, deal with the vagaries of officiating.  I. personally, do not wish laser lines on start and finish.   Or, sorry, can anyone guarantee that everyone will start dead even and that spectators half-way down the course will be able to tell the winner?

Deal with it.

[Ronnie]

http://f2000p.org/database/img_42e45e5a9c410.pdf

[turtle_turtle]

So.........when your team loses, it is never your fault?

Pick a festival, go in it, deal with the vagaries of officiating.  I. personally, do not wish laser lines on start and finish.   Or, sorry, can anyone guarantee that everyone will start dead even and that spectators half-way down the course will be able to tell the winner?

Deal with it.

You are not comprehending the concerns of those affected.  They are not whiners, they just want justice.  It is unfair to work so hard, cough up hard earned money into this festival, and have poor officiating ruin it all.  The fastest team in the race should win.  Keeping silent will only mean that the same thing will happen again. By the way, I think many teams at LAST YEAR's Richmond festival '04 were affected the same way as Little Boat, but decided kept private about this issue because last year, there WERE the SAME problems with officiating and finishline results.  Ding Ding!  One year later, it happens again.  I'm just glad to see that someone is taking charge and doing something about it.  Hopefully this can prevent it from happening again in '06

I am proabably in the "stupid" category.

You don't have to be unless you really want to be  

[zephyrantes]

woodsman: don't you know that there was another thread relating to the "whining" of officiating.   Also, you're right... maybe we should all keep quiet when injustice is apparent.   Why don't you tell that to the rest of the world?   Why don't you tell that to people fighting for human rights, equality, fair trials, etc..etc.. to just "deal with it"?    The paddlers on Little Boat have a reason to protest.   As turtle mentioned, you're not comprehending the issue at hand... which is obvious.

tiger: sorry for hijacking the thread for a second.

[baoser]

Some really great points in this discussion, and unfortunately we were in the "ribbon round" so that win or lose, we didn't really care. Richmond fest was fun, and on the whole, well organized. <Public events are hard to plan...>

As for the final comp. race, that was super close and it's a shame they didn't have better measuring systems.

Lasty: Is anyone actually writing the Richmond Dragon Boat Festival Organizers and letting their steam out? It's no good complaining about this stuff in a dbWest Forum if the organizers don't read it.

Thus, for those who have serious justified gripes about the festival's organization, I encourage you to write them directly. You'll have a better chance to see the changes you want to see. Good luck!