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Author Topic: Ringers, what do you think?  (Read 18154 times)
Paddle me, please!
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« on: September 20, 2004, 07:50:01 PM »

Just wondering how the paddling community felt about teams pulling in "ringers" for festivals and then boasting about their accomplishments.  I know sometimes teams can't field a full team for out of town festivals, but some teams do try recruit top notch paddlers, and some will sit out their own teamates in order to win.  I know of one very top notch team that always jumps on other boats, and FYI some of these paddlers were in Kelowna on winning boats.
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coach_of_little_people
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« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2004, 08:31:21 PM »

Dragon boat, being the team sport it is, unless you replace more than 1/3 of your team with "ringers" (of a roster of 24, that's 8 paddlers), it's probably not going to make that much of a difference. In actuality, it might make it slower...

As well, one of the most important things about a team sport such as dragon boat is blending...so you can have the best paddlers in the world in one boat, but if they don't blend well there chances of being beat by another team with better team work is quite high.

Finally, I think that you answered your a large portion of your question by your comment regarding fielding a team for out of town festivals...sometimes recruiting must occur and why would you recruit slower people, that would not be smart if you want to be competitive.
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meowzers
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« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2004, 08:44:25 PM »

boasting or not
deep down inside those "top notch" teams know that their win wasn't accomplished by just themselves.

the badminton  & tennis teams i manage "ring" players in all the time. it's "shamefull", but it's the coach's call i'm just his assistant. in fact other schools secretly do it too. last year's badminton provincial; we sent 3 juniors into the seniors round - we sat out the "no so good" senior players and played the juniors. the win didn't feel like a win...gold just wasn't gold anymore.

school soccer teams - use league players not enlisted in their school to win games.

it all comes down to the competition and if you "ring" in paddlers/players just to win the tournament; your just cheating yourself and your team.

but you have to look at perspective, some of those top notch paddlers just want to paddle - screw winning or not - they choose to paddle for that specific team - they made the choice to give that team their 110%. you can't take way their right to choose who's boat they would like to jump on... and the paddlers do have the right to decline.

Kelowna's festival isn't as competitive as Alcan - it was the last dboat fest in BC -  where all BC paddlers reunited and had a blast all together, butted around with old friends, made new ones, bumped into old infatuations, found new infautations etc.

it's not wrong and it's definately not right - but it depends where you stand

and i guess it also has to do with the environment of the festival; weither the races are hardcore or softcore.

-edit-

there is no I in TEAM - a sport such as dragonboat - everyone has to work together so in a nut shell  your sitting ducks if your team can't "blend" both posters b4 and after me have spiffy points

"would you rather have a boat full of powerful stokers that didn't know how to coordinate or a boat full of rookie paddlers in sync but lacked the experiance?"  - asks person on the phone with me
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presley
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« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2004, 08:51:28 PM »

I agree with coach_of_little_people ... even if you bring in a few top-notch paddlers for a festival, the bulk of the boat is still the same group of people.  Dragonboat is not an individual sport, and although the contributions of each person are very important, I don't believe that the addition of one or two superb paddlers is enough to make that much of a difference in the end.

We picked up a few extra paddlers after Alcan who paddled with us through the summer in preparation from Kelowna, and there were 2 "last-minute additions" who joined the Blue Team.  Their contributions were very appreciated (or we would have been paddling a boat of 18) but I certainly don't think they are the reason we did so well - it was the work of the entire boat ... old and new paddlers.
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Paddle me, please!
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« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2004, 09:46:19 PM »

Regarding 'coach's' perspective all I can say is borrowing 2 strong paddlers will slightly improve your team, borrowing 3 or 4 strong paddlers will improve your team, by quite a bit.  When it come to winning a race by 100's of a second it does make a difference.  No problem in teams borrowing paddlers, but I guess I got irked by comments from teams who have done this and now say how they've improved so much (because of the borrowed help and not their own accomplishments).
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coach_of_little_people
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2004, 10:04:14 PM »

Hey "paddle me"...I'm a bit confused...

Do your comments regarding "ringers" refer to recruiting before or at a festival b/c you mentioned something about "borrowing paddlers"? Personally, I would never agree with those who "borrow" paddlers once they are at a festival...the roster that is set entering the festival should always remain the same throughout...  Basically, grabbing paddlers when you're at a festival to make your team more competitive in a semi or final, in my opinion, is downright wrong...and against the rules!

However, you must consider that many teams could have become faster in Kelowna than they were in Vancouver b/c it has been 3 months since the ADBF.  So with 3 months of efficient practicing/coaching at 2-3 times per week (24-36 practices) there are many teams that could have increased their abilities to  blend...or the reverse.
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zephyrantes
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« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2004, 10:24:31 PM »

Quote from: meowzers
there is no I in TEAM - a sport such as dragonboat - everyone has to work together so in a nut shell  your sitting ducks if your team can't "blend" both posters b4 and after me have spiffy points

"would you rather have a boat full of powerful stokers that didn't know how to coordinate or a boat full of rookie paddlers in sync but lacked the experiance?"  - asks person on the phone with me


there is no I in team, but there is I in vIctory.   Nothing personal here, it's more of an inside joke to the people in Fresh   Wink  and myself.

You're right, there is no I in team for a sport like dboating where everyone has to work together.. but some people might take on the attitude of win at all costs.

As for the second half of the quote.. look at what happened to the American basketball "dream team" in this year's olympics.... enough said.
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~@ngel~
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« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2004, 10:33:20 PM »

The paddlers that we picked up for Kelowna came out to some of our practices, and I have to admit at least 2 of them were rookies, and really didn't blend too well with our team.  

The original Acme members that were on our Kelowna roster were the core of our team-the ones that show up to every practice, and have made a full commitment to the team-that said, I feel the need to defend my statement that we (being the core members) have improved immensely over the past few months since Alcan.  

Our coach, team captain and manager pushed us just that little bit more to improve enough to rise to the next level.  Did I mention that I had either stomach flu or food poisoning on friday night and saturday, and didn't eat for 2 days? I was not able to race with our mixed team until the finals...I certainly wasn't at my strongest.  Being ranked as the 5th strongest female paddler on the team, this probably had a slight affect on our performance, not to mention the 2 rookies we had on board (no offence).
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tiger
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« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2004, 10:36:56 PM »

Not that a lane had anything to do with some of the results
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rc
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« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2004, 11:56:14 PM »

Recruiting paddlers before a festival IMO is alright but borrowing paddlers from other teams during a festival is down right cheating and I have seen teams do that.I also think teams that have more than one crew (ie...their A and B teams or their Blue and Green teams) should not be exchanging paddlers beween crews.I have seen some paddlers in for their A and B team before in the same festival.Do you guys think that is fair?I don't think it is.
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tiger
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« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2004, 08:57:17 AM »

If any paddler is paddling on more than their assigned team and in the same division then the rules state the teams are DQed.  One paddler, one team.  If you see paddlers on more than one team report it to the race officials and let them handle it.  Look at what happened last year in the Guts and Glory, it was reported and the team was DQed so the process works but only if we report it.

I personally don't think teams do this but nothing surprises me when it comes to what some teams and coaches do  Shocked for the sake of a piece of lead (oops medal I mean)
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Photog
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« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2004, 10:34:50 AM »

what do you all feel about recruiting non-dboaters, such as oc paddlers during a festival?
also, everyone know's there's no I in team, but there is an M and an E.

 Laughing
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presley
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« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2004, 02:32:08 PM »

We have 2 teams (Green & Blue) and we never switch paddlers.  The green boat practices once a week and they run their own practice.  The blue boat (which is the one I'm on) practices twice a week and we run our own practice.

We enter the festivals as 2 distinct teams - each has their own roster and nobody paddles in both boats.  

I know there are several other teams that are similar in this regard (Pacific Reach & Pacific Reach Echo, for example).  I am in complete agreement that it would be cheating to let someone paddle on both boats.
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~@ngel~
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« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2004, 04:47:55 PM »

Quote
Not that a lane had anything to do with some of the results

I totally agree that there was a lane bias, but we still had much better races than we have at past festivals, even when we weren't in lane 7.

Quote
If it's not the core team racing, then race under a different name
-you must have misunderstood.  60% of the boat was the core team racing, and those acme members that didn't paddle in Kelowna were mostly those that only showed up to practice when it was convenient to them.  Why should we change our name.  We wanted to race in Kelowna, but not all of us could make it.  We asked other paddlers to join acme to compete in Kelwna, not to field a brand new team with a new name.
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« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2004, 05:38:33 PM »

Quote from: ~@ngel~
Quote
Not that a lane had anything to do with some of the results

I totally agree that there was a lane bias, but we still had much better races than we have at past festivals, even when we weren't in lane 7.

what happened to you guys in the finals was . . . . fascinating. if i were you, i would have cut to lane 6 when you had the huge lead at about the 1/2 mark, that would have helped, but i don't think the rules would allow that.  Wink
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