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Dragon Boat Canada


IDBF


Canoe Kayak Canada

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[Jing_Du]

Being new to western coastal DB racing (an easterner), I wonder how ocean race organizers account for the effects of the tide.

Won't the sea's current affect your team's times and results and therefore how they would advance in the tournament ?  What is the ADBF's Tail Race all about ?

ADBF SATURDAY Harbour Tide
-- lo of 4' @ 10am rising 9' to hi of 13' @ 5pm

ADBF SUNDAY Harbour Tide
-- lo of 2.6' @ 10:30am rising 11' to hi of 14' @ 6pm

Not a tsunami, but one heck of a creek current.... I just hope my team doesn't have 'tied points' with another team... unless of course we get to race when the speed of the water runs faster so our combined times are biased in our favour and we win the tie breaker.

[Colossus]

i think its basically a "race what you've brought" set up.  whoever is racing in your heat is going to be facing the same conditions that you are.

[Guido]

The object of the game here on the west coast is as follows:

When the tide is going out.....race in the outer lanes.

When the tide is coming in....race in the middle lanes.

Throw a couple of races if you have to.  

Lots of teams do it,  it's to your advantage....see...if you don't get into the higher division...then you're a shoe in for the lower one....works every single time.  

However you have to do it strategically....you have to make sure you don't go all out at the start...you have to stay back a bit and let the teams increase their speed.  One mistake I've seen others do..is go all out...then shut their power off near the finish line and let the other boats pass....looks pretty bad and pretty obvious when that happens.  The other strategy is go all out....and then...and this is VERY IMPORTANT...you make sure you are in at least 2nd place able enough to take over 1st place....then..at about the 1/2 way mark...make sure the item you've submerged (like a seal in a dog's outfit) pops up in your lane (your coach from shore will have the remote device to do this) ....thus causing your steersperson to avoid it and swing over to the other lanes.  This will slow your boat down by quite a few knots and will thus let the other boats from behind pass you and leave you dropping a few spots.

You can buy the underwater device through almost any boating supply store.  One supplier is Nikka Industries(in Steveston) or you can go to Western Marine(on Powell Street).  This one works like a charm...actually our team tested it out at a previous race....worked magnificently.

Those fluctuations are nothing compared to 2003...now that year was really hard to throw races....it just wasn't feasible because of the huge tidal swing.

[DBWTim]

i think its basically a "race what you've brought" set up.  whoever is racing in your heat is going to be facing the same conditions that you are.

First things first, welcome to the West, Jing

Colossus, I think he is referring to the fact that after the first day of races, there is a high possibility of ties from the points given for placement in your two races. Jing_Du's concern is that the tides will play a large variable in the times teams get in the event of a tiebreaker. And if a team is fortunate to have some "tidal assistance", it would place that team ahead of a team that didn't have as much assistance.  The only information we have been given is...

In the event of a tiebreak, times will be used with the lowest combined time being ranked higher (exact calculation to be determined)

I don't think this was ever in a problem in the recent years of Alcan since they never based any forms of advancement based on time. I may be mistaken though.

[Angus]

What is the ADBF's Tail Race all about ?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always considered the tail races as meaningless races that are only used to determine overall rankings. For example, last place in Rec A's tail race is ranked one spot above 1st place in Rec B's Championship race.

When I use the word meaningless, I'm refering to the fact that each team that ends up in a tail race knows that they have no chance of winning hardware. The same could be said about teams that end up in the consolation finals.  The incentive to do their best no longer exists, since victory itself feels hollow.

It's this twisted and cold reality that drives teams into deliberately ending up in a lower division (see Guido's comments) in order to increase their chances of winning hardware. After all, a gold medal from Rec D shines just as brightly as the one from Comp A. Perhaps dragonboaters need to find a way to get beyond the hardware.

I took a look at Toronto's DB Race - they don't have consolation and tail races! Everyone ends up in a final - with only 6 boats in each final!
Do the top three finishers in each final get hardware?!? If so, then that would mean a medalling rate of > 50%.

West Coast festivals are such cheapskates!

[Jing_Du]

COLOSSUS (May 31 2:11)

- granted, within the SAME heat, the tide is the same faced by all contestants
- but throughout the DAY, each heat's tide will be slightly different
- for 2005, the later in the day (afternoon) you race, the faster the water and the faster your time
- [the tide would vary each year; sometimes you may be racing
  AGAINST the current, so your time (and those of your heat mates)
  will be PENALIZED (take longer) rather than PREMIUMED (take shorter)
  compared to racing on relatively still flatwater]


GUIDO (May 31 2:21)

- for 2005, except for the first couple of hours of each morning, the tide will be incoming into False Creek
- granted the deeper MIDDLE LANES WILL BE FASTER than the shallower OUTER LANES
- if races are run every 10 minutes, say, then 6 heats run per hour (or 5 heats if 12 minute intervals)....
   each pool is 48 boats (6 heats of 8 boats per pool)
   so by the time the 6th heat in a pool is run, 2.5 hours will have elapsed since the 1st heat in that pool was run
   [ 1st hour A1-B1-C1-A2-B2-C2, 2nd hr A3-B3-C3-A4-B4-C4, 3rd hr A5-B5-C5-A6-B6-C6 where letter = pool and number = ordinal heat > A4 = Pool A 4th Heat]
   you with me so far ?
   it will be harder to sandbag and throw the race, don't you think (?)


CHAOS (May 31 2:31)
wrote: "Don't think this was ever a problem in the recent years of Alcan since they never based any forms of advancement based on time. I may be mistaken though"

- I think if you check back in 2000, the Toronto and the Vancouver women were racing "fastest combined times"
format towards selecting which crew would represent Canada at the Worlds in Philadelphia 2001

- each crew beat the other once, so they were tied in points; ADBF used the RAW TIMES ADDED to calculate the "fastest combined times".

- it was very contraversial because the margin in relative percentage time was negligible and the absolute raw time calculation was misleading given that the tidal current conditions varied.

- it didn't help that the timing and photofinish equipment used then (and still used now) could not reliably measure down to
  one one-hundreth of a second (no VDO camera shutter speed operates
  at 100 frames per second - the times that MOST festivals publish are ONLY APPROXIMATIONS accurate only to 10ths and not 100ths of a second)

- a much better (fairer) way to settle the score (to break a tie) IMHO would be to RE-RACE TIED CREWS, WINNER TAKES ALL
  when the race course is subject to significant current fluctuations and the playing field is not level

- in your vast experience, do the ADBF race organizers have the wherewithall and savvy to figure out how to make the races fair ?


ANGUS (May 31 3:20)

- I did some Googling around and just learned that a "Tail Race" is used for international regatta racing (eg. rowing, dragonboating)

- Tail Racing is a way to ordinally rank boat race competitors from 1st (fastest) to last (slowest).

- apparently, Tail Racing (and Repechage Racing) are meant ONLY FOR WATER WITH EITHER CONSTANT OR NIL CURRENTS (unlike False Creek)

[tiger]

In the description of the grid race organizers indicated that each ppol will race together which means the first 6 heats will be one pool, the next 6 heats are another pool and finally the last set are a pool.  Based on your calculation everyone in a pool will be done within an hour not 2.5 hours.

In fact tide is just one factor, what about the beer effect, weather, the glare off the water, sogs all over the place, boats, etc.  Only way to get everything perfect is to have it in a building, race one team at a time so that we all race in the same boat and the same lane (in an indoor pool).  Just won't happen.

Also, if anyone wants to be on a championship team then they should be able to overcome these slight differences, otherwise you shouldn't be champions.

IMO

[Jing_Du]

In the description of the grid race organizers indicated that each pool will race together which means the first 6 heats will be one pool, the next 6 heats are another pool and finally the last set are a pool.

What about the beer effect, weather, the glare off the water, sogs all over the place, boats, etc.  

IMO

Thanks for pointing that out; it's good to know. You seem to have insight additional to what's been posted 'n explained.

1st hour A1, A2, A3, A4, A5, A6 initial heats
2nd hour B Pool initial heats
3rd hour C Pool initial heats
4th hour A7-A12 second heats (in a different boat)

The potential time interval between your 1st and your 2nd
race increases to up to around 4 hours (A1 to A12),
which means the water speed difference will be even worse.

So depending on the luck of the draw, worst case...
Team X racing in A6 and A12 (fastest water of pool)
and tying for points with
Team Y racing in A1 and A7 (slowest water of pool)
will in all likelihood clock a faster combined time.
(all other factors being relatively insignificant).

Wouldn't it be better to have all of the tied crews simply
race off
to remove all of the variables, biases and uncertainties ?
(apart from all the other factors you listed)

[DBWTim]

CHAOS (May 31 2:31)
wrote: "Don't think this was ever a problem in the recent years of Alcan since they never based any forms of advancement based on time. I may be mistaken though"

- I think if you check back in 2000, the Toronto and the Vancouver women were racing "fastest combined times"
format towards selecting which crew would represent Canada at the Worlds in Philadelphia 2001

- each crew beat the other once, so they were tied in points; ADBF used the RAW TIMES ADDED to calculate the "fastest combined times".

- it was very contraversial because the margin in relative percentage time was negligible and the absolute raw time calculation was misleading given that the tidal current conditions varied.

- it didn't help that the timing and photofinish equipment used then (and still used now) could not reliably measure down to
  one one-hundreth of a second (no VDO camera shutter speed operates
  at 100 frames per second - the times that MOST festivals publish are ONLY APPROXIMATIONS accurate only to 10ths and not 100ths of a second)

Ah yes.. the infamous Women's Race. How could I forget about that...

- a much better (fairer) way to settle the score (to break a tie) IMHO would be to RE-RACE TIED CREWS, WINNER TAKES ALL
  when the race course is subject to significant current fluctuations and the playing field is not level

- in your vast experience, do the ADBF race organizers have the wherewithall and savvy to figure out how to make the races fair ?

In an ideal world, I would agree that re-racing tied crews would be great. Then again.. in an ideal world, waters would be calm, boats would not cause wash, ADBF not have bought the Geminis and I would have a six-pack rather than a one-keg...

Let's just say hypothetically that they do set up tiebreaker races... 3 pools of 6 heats consisting of 8 boats.. that's like... 144 teams? If each team races 2 races... what is the likelihood of ties among those 144 teams? (I actually don't have the answer since I don't have the brain cells right now nor the desire to do the math). So now we will need to have tiebreaker races for all those teams that have tied in points with these races having somewhere between 2-9 boats in each race. What happens if there are more than 9 boats tied with the same amount of points? Do we split them up into different groups and have the winners of each group race each other? But then the race conditions are different, so it wouldn't be fair.
Anyways, now after the tiebreaker races, we'll have teams that have races more against teams that have rested in the semi-finals. Is this fair now? Probably not... Also, (don't laugh but I've heard this has happened before in previous years) some teams may be disgruntled that some teams get to race more times in the festival than other teams that have paid the same entry fee.

What we all need to remember is that Alcan and pretty much all races on the West Coast are still considered festivals. Teams come out for different reasons and the vast majority of the teams don't care if they're at a disadvantage as long as they're part of the festivities. It's only when you get to the Competitive-level that these disadvantages are even a thought. When considering setting up the race format... there are how many die-hard teams compared to recreational beer teams that just don't care about race conditions? How many teams out there are aware that there is a huge difference in the performance within the "beloved" 6-16 fleet (Funny how the Gemini fleet has more similar performance boat-to-boat, yet most teams would still sell their firstborn to race in a 6-16 race over a Gemini race...)? How many teams actually care about how their boats perform?

I think it just comes down to is... who would you rather please and how much work is involved? The competitive teams, who are probably harder to please than a significant other, or the recreational teams who are just looking for a good time?

As much as I hate to admit it, competitive level teams will just have to suck it up and just race in whatever conditions are present, one race at a time and hope the race grid work in their favor. No one ever said luck wasn't a skill.

[Jing_Du]

Amen to that, Chaos.

You've helped me to understand my original post (which was how do the organizers out west take the tidal current into account.)  Thanks.

Don't wish to be mean spirited here, but what does everyone mean when they say that Alcan is a "world class" race ?

[tiger]

Jing,

Are you implying T.O or Montreal are world class.  I have been to those events and they are more unfair than Alcan when it comes to lanes.  Alcan has more lanes that are "fair" but again not all lanes will be equal.  As I have said before if you want it totally fair, build an indoor pool and use one boat over and over again (of course you would have to dry it out after each race since the 6 oz. of water left at the bottom might cost a team a 1/1,000 of a second).

As to the two heats, I think this is how it will happen:

Pool A - 1st Race
Heat 1 - 6/16
Heat 2 - Gemini
Heat 3 - 6/16
heat 4 - Gemini
Heat 5 - 6/16
Heat 6 - Gemini

Pool A - Second Race
Heat 1 - 6/16
Heat 2 - Gemini
Heat 3 - 6/16
heat 4 - Gemini
Heat 5 - 6/16
Heat 6 - Gemini
 

If you raced in heat 1 then your next race will be in a Gemini which means they will be in heat 2, 4 or 6 in the second set of heats.  Now where they go will depend on what the organizers come up with.  In previous years, where you placed in your heat determined where you went in your second heat.   Not sure ADBF is doing that.  Again, all the races are done within an hour so the tide effect will be similar for all teams in the pool.

The interesting part of the email sent out by ADBF is that the totalling of time is still under discussion.  Maybe someone has a way to minimize the differences in times.  For me I am thinking maybe averaging the 6/16 times to get an average and then take that off a team's 6/16 time and then do the same for the Geminis.  So that means we would take the 24 6/16 times in the first set of races and average them and use that for anyone in a 6/16 (in the first set).  Do the same for the second.  Not sure that would help any?  How about getting the standard deviation?  Or maybe this is where Einstien meant his e=mc2 formula to be used.

Maybe some math major can come up with something and let ADBF know.  

Tig

[Jing_Du]

Jing,

Are you implying T.O or Montreal are world class ? Tig

Do Tiger's have spots ?  Montreal LOOKS like it should be a world course but looks ain't everything in life, are they ?

Some of the other posts (unrelated to this topic) that I've read thru on this forum make reference to the Vancouver race being top drawer and I am just curious about what they mean by that.  From everything I've ever heard /read about, the festival part is pretty good, but I've yet to actually experience the racing.  Just trying to get psyched up for the Big Event.

[tiger]

Depends on the tiger  

[DBWTim]

Here's how Alcan is doing tiebreaks

TIEBREAKS

This is the how tiebreaks will be calculated for teams in the mixed division (after your two Saturday races):
 
In each race, the top time and the 2 slowest times are removed.
Sum all other times in the race and determine the average time for that race.
Subtract the average time from each team that was in that race, this will be the official tiebreaking time for each team.
Do the same for the second race.
Add the two times together to determine total time for a team, fastest total time is ranked higher for the second day rankings (if pojnts are equal).

Here is an example (times are rounded to make it easier):

Race 1
Lane 4    1:00.0
Lane 5    2:00.0
Lane 6    3:00.0
Lane 3    4:00.0
Lane 2    5:00.0
Lane 7    6:00.0
Lane 1    7:00.0
Lane 8    8:00.0

Step 1 - Throw away the fastest and two slowest times

Lane 5    2:00.0
Lane 6    3:00.0
Lane 3    4:00.0
Lane 2    5:00.0
Lane 7    6:00.0

Step 2 - Determine the average time from the remaining times

Average time = 4:00.0

Step 3 - Subtract the average time from the each team's time, use these times in a tiebreaking situation

Lane 4    1:00.0 - 4:00.0 = -3:00.0
Lane 5    2:00.0 - 4:00.0 = -2:00.0
Lane 6    3:00.0 - 4:00.0 = -1:00.0
Lane 3    4:00.0 - 4:00.0 = 0:00.0
Lane 2    5:00.0 - 4:00.0 = 1:00.0
Lane 7    6:00.0 - 4:00.0 = 2:00.0
Lane 1    7:00.0 - 4:00.0 = 3:00.0
Lane 8    8:00.0 - 4:00.0 = 4:00.0

Step 4 - Do the same for the second race on Saturday

The likelihood of a team being right on the average is very, very slim, so the example is exactly that, just an example. And the example times used should make it easier to understand.

[Angus]

This is pretty impressive! Don't know how well it will work in practice, but wow... it's a pretty good stab at trying to find a fair way to break a tie.
Hat's off to whoever thought of this one!