Dragon Boat West

i woke up, went to mother's beach and our 10 men boats are gone.... coincidence?   :think:

lol scott,

the 10 man boats were in foster city this last weekend

Looks like an interesting series! Good work organizers!

Wont be long until a Dragon Boat Grand Prix type of event rolls along lol  :D

Sounds like a great way to "incentivize" teams to attend more Waters Edge events...

Getting the chance to race for money should really stimulate the competitive juices of many dragonboaters.... hopefully it doesn't change the spirit of the events and bring out a darker side in some participants.

yeah i guess now,  All the False Creek Teams will be at ALL these events now.
Not much chance for the other Rec and Novice teams eh ?
Unless they have breakdowns for the lesser divisions and there is another issue.  That would be better teams sand bagging to lower Division to collect prise money.

Sorry if this is this being a bit too harsh ?

Oops very sorry Water's Edge !!  My bad.

I guess i should have read the whole blurb before i started bark out loud.

Actually, this is a great way to promote your A-1 Product.  We are surely going to be one team that will be attending at least three of these events.

will there be 200m-10man races in seattle or just the standard ho-hum 500m?

Sounds like someone should put together an Outrigger all-star team to snag some cash...

no doubt outrigger guys are good, but IMHO the shorter the race, the greater the advantage a good dragon boat team has - especially one that can get the boat up and accelerated quickly. 

most of the outrigger guys i've had the pleasure of paddling with (some of the best Southern California has to offer) find it difficult to get enough blade pressure at a high enough rate to get the boat up quickly from a dead start - a vital component of a 200m piece.

I don't know about that LARD core,  when I paddled in the IVF World Outrigger Sprints in Nimbus Flats, the outrigger guys seemed to have very good starts...Including the Southern Cal group.

  The winning time from that event was 1:49 in an oc6 for 500m into a head wind.  Our best time was for FCRCC was only 1:58. 

I think that it doesn't matter if you are an outrigger paddler or DB paddler, everyone is equal. If you can be fast in one kind of boat, with some training you can be fast in another type of boat.

Did you go to World Sprints?
Those guys didn't seem to have much trouble getting a boat up to speed...

To be clear, I have not paddled with every single outrigger paddler in So Cal.  I can only draw from my direct experience.  Although my experience may be limited compared to some of your experiences, my experience is direct experience - not just watching a team from shore which I believe may be a bit more relevant than just watching from shore or on youtube.

What limited amount I do know is that, as a paddler on the West Coast Paddling Association (the West Coast group at this year's USDBF Nationals), the outrigger guys assigned by the coach (not me) to paddle in the 200m races had a hard time getting adequate blade pressure at the rates I had become accustomed to racing with my dragon boat team.  I know because they told me this after the coach pretty much asked us to use a faster dragon boat start in practice to see how quickly we could get the boat up to speed.  We pretty much failed using that start.

So, we changed the start sequence so that a lower stroke rate was used - the boat got up to speed but not as quickly as I thought a boat should with the type of talent we had on that boat.  Of course, there were other factors - namely, we only practiced less than a handful of times together, and for many of the outrigger paddlers, it was the first time in a dragon boat.  Perhaps the outcome would have been different if that team actually trained consistently together. 

By no means am I saying I know all.  I'm merely making an observation. 

That being said, I would bet on the strongest dragon boat team against the strongest outrigger team in a 200m dragon boat race any day.  This is not disrespecting outrigger paddlers in any way.  On the flipside, as the length of a dragon boat race grows, I would bet more and more on the outrigger team.

~Scott

Actually... the longer the race the more likely a DB team is going to win (you're paddling all on one side).
At 200m.... smart money is on a strong OC team.

Here's the thing...
You're basing your opinion on the results in your one experience.
The trouble is that (to be blunt) the OC paddlers racing with you were not a great example. The US DB Nationals were the same weekend as the SCORA and NCOCA Sprint Champs (and the week before the IVF Worlds). As a result - many of the top sprint OC paddlers were racing elsewhere or tapering.

In terms of getting a boat up to speed...
Your average competition DB runs around 600lbs. Add in the tiller and drummer for another 300lbs. Divide by 20 paddlers. So each paddler is carrying an extra 45lbs that they need to accelerate.
An OC6 weighs 400lbs. Assuming you've got a hot **** steersperson who paddles the whole time and never pokes, you divide by 6 paddlers. So each paddler needs to accelerate an extra 66lbs.

For an example... the following video shows the start of the 1500m final at the IVF world sprints. Realize that this is a 1500m and as such this is a slower start than what you would see in a 500m (for example).
1500m sprint (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2YMcnGFc3g&eurl=http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=tahiti%20world%20sprint&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:&feature=player_embedded)

In terms of holding a high rate... see the above video. Again... I think that your particular sample is colouring your opinion. As you can see in the video - OC sprint paddlers often use a reasonably high rate. And... again... this is for a 1500m (not a shorter sprint). If that's not convincing... think about this... Shell Va'a held an average stroke rate of 82/minute to win the Molokai Ho'e this year. 82 strokes a minute across the Molokai Channel!! For those who don't know... that's 42 miles.

At the end of the day... this will be settled on the water.
Then again... it's been settled on the water before. Scott... how did you all do against Mauna Hale at Alcan last year? Or a better example... Look at the 2007 Alcan Open Finals...

Wow! Thanks so much for setting me straight, James! 

I must apologize for drawing from my own personal paddling experiences in both dragon boat and outrigger as they are clearly not relevant.  I should have realized that all of my paddling experiences to date have been all coincidental anomalies.

But one thing - you forgot to point out which paddler you are in any those videos.... and you forgot to mention how those boats felt compared to paddling in dragon boats with similar crews.  I couldn't imagine you gained your astute wisdom merely from watching videos...

I'm sure shape of vessel (OC v. d-boat), shape of blades and shafts have nothing to do with the equation either as I am sure, if they did, you would have discussed them.

Finally, I'm not sure how referencing my team's pitiful performances (at least in your all-knowing eyes) over the years somehow lends credence to your arguments but I'll make sure I tell my teammates how much they suck.

Perhaps one day you can come out and do a clinic for us?

Since you seem to be the final word in paddling, perhaps you can answer my original question - if there will be 10 man races in Seattle? 

You're both wrong, so you can stop the fighting.  If you threw all the False Creek squatter boat owners into a DB, they'd be the fastest crew out there.

I agree with that.
For last year's Calgary DB festival, the Calgary Canoe Club threw together a mix of 20 outrigger/war canoe specialists.  They barely practised together AT ALL...and pulled a sub-two minute time for a 500 metre race and won the event handily.

Hey Aquaman what Colossis said was a joke, sort of. The squaters are the ones that contribute to the pollution in False Creek and I somehow doubt any of them have any idea how to paddle correctly. But maybe they can paddle for their lives if the cops chased after them meaning they could be fast!

 :D
Whoops, yes, next time I will actually read the post instead of skimming over it...
But I do agree with the earlier point in the thread that elite paddlers from other disciplines can kick ass at dragon boat with very, very little indoctrination to our sport.
And yeah, when I paddled out of False Creek (1992-2003), I remember how irritating the squatter boats were.  Not all of them were dumping bilge in FC, but a large percentage certainly were, as reflected by the coliform counts.

 Like Rob... I have raced at the 2006 Club Crews in TO,2007 Worlds in AUS and the 2008 IVF Worlds in Cali so I have had a little taste of both as well

 This is a hard question ......if it is a level playing field meaning that the outrigger guys had the same amount of time in a d/b as the d/b guys do it would be tough to call .

 As Rob said it comes down to the quality of paddlers themselves ......To throw a team of awesome outrigger paddlers w/ very little d/b time together as a crew and then put them up against say a world level d/b crew w/ lots of time together then hands down I would think the d/b will win .1 thing to remember is that most D/B paddlers at the elite level also train and race in another paddling discipline

 The problem with the d/b 200 is that it is a high rate, everything you got type of race and not something o/c paddler are used to ,even oc sprint paddlers .The oc paddler usually finds it difficult paddling on just 1 side and the longer the distance (500,1000,2000 ) the tougher they will find it unless they have trained as a d/b paddler or such for a little while and built up their endurance for 1 sided paddling .Another thing to consider is blade size which is regulated in d/b and not in o/c where you can use any width /size you like ......makes for a different game when we are all the same

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC4l4fJbehk      look at the rates used in the 200 - not something you usually find in oc


   In oc1 time trials that we did o/c guys that were fast in the oc1 sprint (allowing for changing sides ) seemed to lose some endurance ( hit the wall quicker) over the same distance when performing the same distance useing only 1 side  ....sometimes it can be quite noticeable in some and most o/c paddlers will/would even admit they had problems holding on for the distance only useing one side .

 Anyway if all was the same and each had equal training and equal equipment and both were elite crews it would be an awesome race .Every Alcan you can find the outrigger guys throwing together a very stacked crew of outrigger heavies to go head to head w/ the FCRCC d/b men and the race is usually very very close .Most of the oc crew will tell you it was just a matter of needing more time together as a crew and laughing about how long the distance was to paddle 1 sided and just trying to hang on till the end....this is why FCRCC DB guys will usually win . I think its great they throw this team together most years .........Its no fun winning without a battle to the end


 PS- the OC Paddler.com guys luv this stuff .....there is a link to this on their site   ......http://www.ocpaddler.com/node/4536

Too funny! I've seen a lot of outrigger guys throw together crews and do well in dragon boat, but the False Creekers are the only dragon boaters I've seen do well in outrigger competition. My buddies did Alcan last summer and did pretty well I think (2nd? Mulu Tapasa and co.), with zero preparation. I believe Danny Ching and some other oc paddlers won the U.S. Nationals last year, but there were dragon boaters in their crew also. No offense, but just among people I know, it seems like the typical dragon boater is more of a recreational paddler. You dragon boaters should just be glad that the Tahitians haven't taken up the sport yet-they'd crush anyone in the world.

 As for the tahitians.......you are right ... I'm sure 1 day they may finally show up in a d/b on the world stage and that will be awesome to see

That outrigger crew who came in 2nd at Alcan had some pretty good paddlers but it could've been a lot better. It's hard for us to make that three day commitment to race dragon boats, especially w/ so much other racing at that time of year. I think it says a lot about the whole outrigger vs. DB issue that a throw together crew of essentially mediocre outrigger paddlers can come in 2nd at race like Alcan. Isn't that one of the bigger DB events?

Wow..really, dragon boaters vs outrigger guys..who reigns supreme?

Who cares? really...i mean if u really do, start a new thread.
Paddleboy already put an end to this with his last post, so quit hijacking the Water's Edge Race series thread with the flame/smack talk.

Just STFU and paddle!*

*Applies to both paddling sports

No flaming-just paddle talk. Thread hijacking? What is dat? The thread had turned to DB vs. outrigger, and if you make an honest assessment, you'd see that right now, there's simply better athletes in the sport of outrigger. Aren't False Creek among the top DBers? Maybe because they paddle outriggers all the time. Check it out-it's a good way to build your endurance-you can only paddle on one side for so long you know. Doesn't Philly pick their DB team w/ an oc1 time trial?

 snif............can't we all just get along ( as Rodney once said ) .........lol

 As for outrigger paddlers vs oc paddlers ......its where you go when you retire from d/b !!!!   LoL   ....this should start a good flame !!!!.

How many times I have heard I can't do d/b anymore it hurts my back or paddling one side is too hard on the body or you plain just never make the A crew !!! and give up .................hahahahaha


 Flame on !!!! Poke Poke ->>> ....just messing with you guys ! lol ..I luv both ; ) but nothing like a  200 or 500 meter head to head battle either d/b or oc1 /6

Don't get me started Paddleboy, I'll tell mom again! I'll make sure you get only a lump of coal this year in your stocking!!!

 just make sure it says " Quickblade" please !

So...
I think this needs to get settled once and for all.
What are the odds that LARD sends their top 10 up to BC for at least one of these races?
Can we get 10 marathon folks together to do this?
How about 10 war canoe paddlers?
And of course is it possible for 10 OC paddlers from Sail Sand Point or Jericho or Mountain Home to show up (on time)?
And then there are the flatties...

Bring it!!

Like I said, it's hard for us to drop everything for a 3 day event at that time of year. Isn't there a big race in Seattle in Spring? We have a bunch of DBers in our club now, and they're all psyched for something coming up. For me, I grew up on O'ahu, and in the Hawaiian outrigger culture sprints are more for kids and older people. Some guys get fired up for Worlds, but hardly anyone focuses on sprinting in Outrigger. It's just a time thing, mostly.