Dragon Boat West

Let's go old school and bring back the 650m race distance! I could do without the teak boats though.

Also, how about rolling back the beer garden prices to what they were 20 years ago!  :lol:

Bring back the original winners sounds like a great idea.

However i was thinking more along the lines as what you can do for the majority of the paddlers.  Not just simply the best, the top teams always get all the recognition.  Not that the recognition is surely deserved( i've been there), but there is alot more behind the scenes if a little time was taken to see things like determination, willingness to learn, desire and HEART.  Which alot of paddlers have...they may not have the skills or strength but man do they work hard, very hard. In time manny of the may be one of the best.  I'm sure that majority of the coaches out there can see that ?   But what if in the next five/ten years there is no more Alcan, what then ??


So what can be more rewarding to someone that busted their butts off practicing day in and day out, wanting to recieve that all ellusive reward. HARDWARE.

I know its not all about the medals,  it is a small token of their hard work.  But at ALCAN there is less than 5.5% chance of comming out of Alcan with hardware.

Why not give medals for all division ?  Not just for the championship, but for the consolation divisions as well.  After all what is the cost associated with this.  Almost nothing, considering that the fees are the highest amogst all the other events.  But the rewards to the paddlers are HUGH !!

Thanks, just letting off a little steam here tonight. Sorry if i stepped on anyones toes.
jsut my two cents worth.

Speaking of "old school" how about the paddlers dance on the Friday night at the old Armories location just up from GM Place? It used to be there in the old days and it was on the Friday nights I believe?? The price of the booze should also reflect the prices of 20 years ago thats for sure! I know that the more "serious" teams probably wouldn't go to it but it is a great ice breaker so the ones that do want to go can get there and meet other paddlers before the actual racing begins. That way we get to "buddy up" with some out of towners and incourage more cheering from other teams who know so and so from such and such a team! Maybe some sort of encouragement to get more teams to go to the dance could be prizes for just that, the ones with the most members of their crew who show up??? Just a thought... 8))

Also CCR-MGR good idea about having all divisions, including the consolations, to award top 3 finalists with a medal of some sort. I like that one!

okay my spelling sucks,  sorry but i think you get the gist of it ??

Forget medals...we should get belts!  You know what I'm saying, WWE belts, oh yah!

(http://graysmatter.codivation.com/content/binary/UltimateWarriorArmTassels.jpg)

Oh yeah the old Armory !!   I can remember going to there, but i don't ever remember comming out.   And i highly doubt that they will reduce the beer to a buck a shot or was it 75 cents ??

Swordfish last i heard the Ultimate warrior was dead ?!?   but very funny just the same !!! LOL

Hm, i'm going to go against ccr-mgr and bernman, and say that they should keep the medal hand-out the way it is now...  I believe that only those in the top three places in "proper finals" (ie not consolation finals) should get medals.  Do you get a medal for coming in 4th?  a ribbon?  no...  so why should a team in the same division that wasn't fast enough to get into the final get "rewarded"?  to make them feel better about themselves?  an ego boost?  This is a COMPETITION, not a "Lets Help Everyone Feel Good About Themselves" pow-wow.  Didn't get a top 3 placing in your division? Work harder, train harder, and make sure everyone else on your team is doing the same, come back next time and kick ass.  Your current team not satisfying your competitive drive?  Go find one that does.  If you take away the reward for the teams that have worked the hardest (that is relative, of course, as some people don't necessarily need to work as hard to achieve a certain level, but thats going deeper than needed here), you take away the underlying reason for competition:  the proving grounds - the place to put together everything you've been working so hard on and show your mettle.  See how you stack up against your peers. 

If you hand people everything on a platter for them, there is going to be no desire to work towards that goal, no motivation to achieve that higher level.  They're teaching that crap in schools these days, too.  "Everyone is a winner, there are no losers".  Sorry, but wake up and smell the coffee people.  In reality, there are winners and losers, first and last place etc etc etc. 
If you want to go back to "old school", think about this: in the good 'ol ancient days, what we might perceive as sports were a way of teaching life skills, skills needed to survive in the "real world", the world where the winner lived, and the loser died.  So, forget patronizing the people who didn't make the final, but instead help and encourage them to push their limits and improve and challenge each other and come out ahead next time.  If they're in it for the hardware but don't want to put in the work, they can save their fees and their saturday/sunday mornings and buy some medals.  If they're in it for the fun of being with a bunch of friends (new and old) and being a little bit competitive, medals won't mean all that much. 


If you couldn't tell by that long ramble, I'm sick of today's society (huge generalization, yes, but its very noticeable) expecting things to be just handed over as if we're all-deserving, instead of putting a little effort into things and working towards a goal, and reaping in the reward of achieving that goal, and in the satisfaction that they broke down their own personal walls in order to achieve it.  If you want a medal, grow some backbone and work for it just like the rest of us have had to. 
I won't be at this year's Alcan, but if I was, i'd like to see something for the volunteers...  the crap some of them have to put up with, the stress of dealing with all those teams and boats coming and going all day for 2 days straight (not to mention the pre and post Alcan work), there is little to no public recognition of all the volunteers for the weekend. 
Also, if there is going to be both a womens and mixed 2000m race, do one on the saturday and the other on the sunday.  It runs WAY too late into the evening for some of the out of town paddlers needing to catch ferries etc. 
Have the beer garden stay open a bit later.  I think we got cut off from drinks 20 minutes after getting off the water from the Guts & Glory last year.  And lower prices would be nice, too.  I think we were paying nearly double (or more?) for a cup full of beer. 

My reason for suggesting medals in all rounds is because it is an anniversary year. I agree with Colossus' explanation about put out or shut up. I wholeheartedly agree! I just think being the 20th anniversary is why it could be done so people will say "yea I got a medal in the consolation round but that was only because it was an anniversary year and it was an exception" or something like that. Perhaps make the medals slightly different so that there is a difference between the final rounds and the consolation rounds. That was what I was thinking about. And of course the medals should tastefully acknowledge that it was indeed the 20th anniversary year etc. Hope this clears it up a little bit Colossus.  :lol: And yes you did ramble on and on but your point was duly noted!

More Taiwan Beer, you know - like at that other festival.   :P

/ runs away

I agree with what Colossus said about the volunteers.  They work their arses off all day long and few seem to appreciate their efforts.

I definitley agree with the concept of handing out medals for all finals, be they Championship or Consolation.

Given the way that the seeding and makeup ofthe Championship finals is composed, it's most unfair to make the statement that "so why should a team in the same division that wasn't fast enough to get into the final get "rewarded"".

For teams seeded as recreational, the sunday morning semi finals at Alcan group two divisions together, A/B & C/D.  Advancement to the respective finals is then based on placement in that semi.  For the A/B semi-finals, placement into the finals is: 1st & 2nd to Rec A Championship; 3rd & 4th to Rec A Consolation; 5th & 6th to Rec B Championship; 7th & 8th to Rec B Consolation.

Can anybody honestly say that the teams that came 5th & 6th in the semi are more deserving of a chance to race for real hardware in the final than the teams that beat them (i.e. 3rd & 4th) who while receiving a higher overall finish have to settle for racing for a ribbon.

Likewise the teams that come in 7th & 8th in the Rec A/B semi. These guys & gals pulled harder and longer on the Saturday than those who will medal in Rec C, but are left to race for a ribbon, whilst boats they beat the previous day get the glory of hardware, all be it in a lower division.

I can say that.   :D  but thats cause I'd rather get a higher final overall placing than a medal in a lower division.  there is no "perfect" way to do the seeding with that many teams over two days, and the way its set up now (or at least year year) was in such a way that you have to bring your A-game to every single race. 
like i said in my hugely, insanely long ramble (don't worry if you skimmed past this point, i did go on for quite a bit), if its only about the hardware, go out and buy yourself a shiny medal, or sandbag a race or two in order to get into a medal round.  This is a competition, a proving grounds of sorts.  Sure, medals are nice at the end of the day, but i'd rather be able to say that I got to race in the A-final consolation and get 14th overall, than to win a medal in the C-final and place 35th overall (just pulling those numbers out of my arse...  not sure if those are the actual placings for those divisions).  Thats me being my competitive self.  back when I paddled as a Rec paddler, it was all about having fun, and personal/team improvement.  E-consolation?  eh, whatever, I was having fun.  get into E-final the next year?  GREAT!  we did better! still had a fun time, which is what was important. 

I'm still against the medal for consolation finals on this occasion due to setting precedent and expectation.  if you want to give a souvenir of the 20th anniversary, mass produce some sort of trinket that is a souvenir of the 20th anniversary of the festival, non-representative of how well you did or didn't do in the races, but of the festival itself.  Maybe some huge banner that you can have professional team photos taken under/beside/with, that you'd get copies of for free.  We're a photo-happy culture these days, and being able to look back at team photos representing good times 10-15yrs down the road is always fun to do. 

I'll agree with Wanker about the Taiwan beer.  That stuff is QUALITY!  :lol:

I wholeheartedly agree that it's overall position that is most important, and not some piece of hardware.....

However when you made the comment but i'd rather be able to say that I got to race in the A-final consolation and get 14th overall, than to win a medal in the C-final and place 35th overall (just pulling those numbers out of my arse...  not sure if those are the actual placings for those divisions it sounded like you were talking about Competitive level divisions....  and in case you didn't realise, there are no Consolation finals in the Competitve level divisions at Alcan, only in the Rec divisions.

So the top 32 teams all get the chance to race for medals, but only half of the rec teams get this chance.

It should either be consistent across all finals, or they should eliminate medals for everyone except Comp A.

This thread should be re-titled.

I am in agreement with Colossus. Medals should only be for the top three placements in the final rounds, period, end of story. Does anyone remember (without researching) who placed where from year to year. The point of racing is to do your best, medal or no medal.

This sport is not about the hardware but about the accomplishments of teams and paddlers (and the fond memories you create in the beer gardens!). If you want the bling then step up your game or get on a team that will help you in achieving that goal.

Besides the medal ceremony has been pretty much non-existant in the last couple of years. Miss the old days at the Plaza when teams actually paraded in like the Olympics.

And yes, something must be done about the Guts & Glory, makes for a very long day.

See you all on the finish line!

Ahhhhhh, the good times had in the beer garden, eh Kerry?  :lol: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsS4D5RekqE)

paddlecwazy, like i wrote/you quoted, i was just pulling numbers and ranking out of my arse on that one.  I was generalizing, and was talking competitive divisions in my example merely "because". and in racing beyond alcan, there are consolation finals for everything...  take a look at how many "finals" there were for each distance in Australia - minor final, major final, grand final.  Should we have gotten medals for taking first in the major final in the mens 500m or whatever distance it was?  No, because we weren't the top team.  What are we doing about it?  training harder, working on putting together an even stronger/faster team for the next national team trials and taking it to the next worlds and kicking ass in the "grand final" and bringing home the gold. 
It makes no difference whether its at the comp level or rec level in my opinion.  you work to get into whatever level you get into, you work to get into the final of that level, and you work to get a medal in that level.  you don't "settle" for a medal in the consolation.  If you've grown past the final of the division that you were in the previous year (did that with my very first team), you be proud of yourselves for having achieved that much already within one year and strive for the next final.  and so on and so forth. 

Colossus I am in agreement with you. Don't get me wrong. But I only supported the medal idea in the consolation rounds because it is the 20th Anniversary edition. I even said that there should be noticeable differences between the top final medals and the consolation final medals in terms of how they should look like. I am trying to give those of us who are going to be paddling this year at Alcan something to remember it by even if it is a consolation medal, or at the very least a conversation piece! A memento for most who will be there. I think its a good idea but cost being a factor may never happen anyway. :roll:

the problem i see in that though, is that a) not everyone will get a momento of the 20th anniversary, b) sure, they know its only because of the 20th anniversary, but next year, they'll think "we got one last year...  sucks that we didn't get one this year". 
In my opinion, if the festival is going to do something to celebrate its 20th anniversary, it should be something that involves ALL of the teams and ALL of the paddlers (and the organizers and volunteers!), such as my photo idea.  I don't have any clue on the feesability of that idea, but hey, its an idea that includes everyone. 

I agree with Colossus that medals for racing acheivement should not be diluted by giving them to lower acheiving teams or intermingled with medals for other purposes...although I can't entirely agree all of his rant.  I have paddled and coached at all levels and have tons of hardware for winning to prove it but I value the commemorative hardware and momento's reminding me that I was there at that time and place, just as much. (i.e. been there, done that, got the t-shirt to prove it).

The idea of a 20th anniversary commemorative medal ...not just a trinket...is a good one....should be given to all paddlers on all teams participating as part of their entry package....this is particulalry important for all those people who are motivated to paddle and race for other reasons ....i.e. just for being there   (I've still got my jersey from the '94 Victoiria Commonwealth Games when we used the teak boats in a 'demonstration" event at the Games...plus a raft of other hats, shirts and commemorative medals from events elsewhere.)

Speaking of teak - if the teak boats still float I would like to see them used in some demo (650m) races along with the waterlogged paddles (can't recall if they were teak, mahog or w.h.y. but they were heavy and short!).

Finally, I think the event should have a distinct theme in addition to the 20year anniversary, although I can't think of one offhand. but would prefer not to see it linked to the Olympics.

I agree with the overall sentiment about not giving a medal for consolation rounds. However, I do think that there is an opportunity to give teams a chance to win hardware where they may not otherwise be able to. I think we can achieve that and honour the festival's history by bringing back the Cup races....The Bankers Cup, The Technology Cup, etc... I am sure those Trophies are collecting dust somewhere...probably in Greg Lamb's basement.  :)

I believe the last time any one of those trophies was contested was back in 2003? I can't recall all the different "Cup" races, but I do recall that many were hotly contested throughout the 90's and the early part of this decade. By bringing back the cup races, we give teams that may not have won medals, an opportunity to win a Cup that recognizes their industry group. We do not compromise the integrity and value of winning a medal, but yet give an opportunity to non-medal winning teams a chance to contend for a Cup that recognizes their industry.

As an aside, I understand there is work being done to bring together a team for the World Police & Fire Games here in Vancouver. I believe there was a Cup for teams employed in the Public Service. IMO, it would be a good opportunity for that team to come together and race in such a cup as many of the paddlers that are in law enforcement or the fire service are paddling for other teams at Alcan. Just a thought.

The only challenge I can think of in bringing back these Cup races is fitting them into the already tight race grid.

 

that, i think, would be the hardest part.  I'm not sure how the festivals out east manage it....  perhaps its a separate festival?  *shrug*  not sure. 

Cup races could be held on the Friday evening, this is what Calgary does. The cup also includes a keg of beer!  :Cheers:

Where do I sign up?   :D

I definately agree regarding not awarding the "Consolation" teams.  Not sure if it was mentioned already, but if we're talking about rewarding those deserving... what about 4th, 5th, and 6th in the actual final rounds? 

Everyone likes hardware... though I know many people rather the higher rank, a lot of people would still like something to take away.  So, what I fear from having medals for the consolation rounds is people crapping out to get to the consolation round and receiving "hardware".

Solution, nicer ribbons.  Like...chrome ribbons with spinners.   8)) 

A ribbon is just a ribbon. Or better yet some people may even use it as a book mark. I don't read so I just toss them. But really how many people proudly display their ribbons? I know I don't.  :? :think:

Before I packed up my room, I had a shelf of trophies, plaques, medals, and ribbons, etc that I've picked up over the years from various sports.  One of my friends has an entire wall in her living room full of trophies, ribbons etc that she's won...    I'm quite sure others do as well. 

But, unlike Bernman here, I learned how to read and occassionally use non-placing ribbons as book marks.  ;) :lol:

HARDY HAR HAR!  :P  :werd:

20 Years. That is significant. Since so few of the participants actually receive a medal, it would be nice if every participant received a commemorative pin or medal for being part of this special year.