Dragon Boat West

 Help!! any outriggers out there....
 I have been paddling in a dragon boat for the last four years ,I have always been under the impression that the stroke for outrigger and dragonboat were virtually the same . A few members of our team went out on a oc-6 this past weekend;  4 of us from D.B. and an " expert from an outrigger". He had no dragonboat experience.
We were told a number of key points which would result in a successful stroke for an outrigger.
1.Lose the high top arm no power will result from this .
2.Strength comes from the lats, not the core .
3. No catch. Start the pull before the blade is buried.
4.No hip movement and no leg drive (basically just switch leg position depending on the side you are paddling on )
5. No 5 20
 6.Exit  should  be a full D stroke with the blade brought up very high and top arm dropping low in the boat.
He felt if we were to implement most of these factors in our stroke for dragonboat it would be very beneficial to our team . Our team had a very successful year in D.B.
 I would really apprciate some opinions on this !! I have a hard time believing that some of these points could be beneficial to either stroke.Help!!!
 

first off i'll say this:  different strokes for different folks.  what works for some people might not necessarily work for others.

While i'm sure my coach would love it if my technique was identical in OC and DB, I find myself using two kinds of strokes in OC.  for sprinting, i use much more of a "DB" stroke, probably because thats what i'm used to sprinting with.  for distance, i tend to use a more "classical outrigger" stroke, although its probably a hybrid between that classical OC stroke and what I use for sprinting. 
by "high top arm", do you mean top hand over the water?  in my opinion (and in the opinion of many others), that is the ideal position for your top arm to be in in ANY boat you paddle (db, oc, c1, k1).  this allows a downward force while you pull yourself through the water which lifts the boat in the water and theoretically, less drag through the water. 
whoever this person is, must have lats big enough to fly with.  either that, or he doesnt' realize the work that his core is doing.   or ....   :silenced:
your core is what allows the strength of your body's motion to be applied to the paddle and move the boat forward, whether you realize how engaged the core is or not.  plus, your core muscles are what allow you to rotate with any strength.  or does this guy not believe in rotating either?
catch, in its most basic idea, is getting the blade fully buried before pulling in order to get a firm "plant" in the water and not rip the water.  essentially, if you can bury completely THEN pull, you'll be moving the boat more effiently, and most likely the boat will move that extra bit quicker than the same stroke but pulling before being fully buried.
switching leg position?  i'm guessing this is refering to OC6?  I will admit that i find it difficult to brace and produce leg drive in an oc6 due to lack of bracing unless i'm in seat 1.  But not using your hips?  i dunno....   if you can use your hips to aid in your stroke, do it.  in an oc1, definately use your hips and legs.  take a look at ANY olympic or world championship footage of sprint kayak or canoe (youtube is your friend) and see how many paddlers are NOT using either their legs or their hips.  only watch one video, or your eyes will hurt after not finding any if you try to keep on looking.
huh?
see above where talking about different strokes for different folks.  BUT, "blade brought up very high"?  the only time i've seen that is cerimonial paddling of the Royal Barge in Bangkok.  Remember that you want to maximize your output IN the water, and maximize relaxation of your muscles while out of the water. lifting the blade high out of the water is a waste of energy.  keep it as low as is reasonable; if the water is dead flat, its easy to float it less than an inch off of the surface, if the water is choppy, lift it a little bit higher than the highest wave in its path to the front of the stroke. 
do what works for your team as a whole.  just because so and so says that such and such way of paddling is the way to go, doesn't necessarily mean it IS the way to go.  At the Worlds in Australia, there were lots of different styles of strokes.  what worked for some, wouldn't necessarily work for others.  For example, if the big, heavy Slovakians used the stroke that the smaller, lighter Philipinos used, I'm sure they would have vastly different results.  Another example is the stroke that was used by China and Maccau (very similar strokes).  China was blazing fast, Maccau wasn't. 
 

Just out of curiosity, who was this outrigger guru who you had in your boat?  feel free to PM me if you don't feel comfortable posting the name on the forum.  I'd love to see how this person believes the proper technique should be.  from what you wrote here, I have a hard time imagining how this stroke can be performed without looking extremely awkward and not being very efficient.

I think 0c and Dragon Boat is comparing apples to oranges in many ways.

For one thing doing 500m races like in dragon boating is different to doing 27000m races like in outrigger. 

A key difference are the blades also.  A dragon boat blade is paddled different to a outrigger blade that has a larger blade face and a bent shaft.

And there is no Dragon Boat stroke or outrigger stroke.  There are different styles used by different crews.

 The main things about paddling what the blade does in the water, and how you go about moving the boat is dependent on a lot of different factors. 

A good blog from the FCRCC website has detailed information on how boats move and how to stroke them effectively:
http://snappyexit.com/

The best way to learn to make the boat move is to paddle small boats.  Marathon Canoes, 0c1s, K1s, C1s, etc.  The more times you paddle, and the more different boats you paddle, the more you learn what moves them. A good coach teaching you is also a must.

Are you sure this expert wasn't pulling your leg?

Regardless of differences in style, there are a few fundamentals that don't change (and that are the same for DB, OC, or any paddling discipline):

- use the core
- get a solid catch
- minimize "unnecessary movement"

I put "unnecessary movement" in quotes because I think this is where people following different styles can have a lot of disagreement as to what is and what is not necessary. I agree with Rob that the main thing is what the blade does in the water and that paddling solo with someone to coach you is by far the best way to develop your understanding. The coach might imprint upon you a certain style, which is fine but be humble when you go back to your team and blend in with the team style instead of trying to impose the new style you learned.

well said

There are a million different styles.

That being said... I'd probably suggest that you go and paddle with at least one other OC "expert" before following this advice. While some of it seems a bit "odd" there are a couple things in there that (as an outrigger paddler) make no sense what so ever. Perhaps you misunderstood him?

Race distance will probably have something to do with why your expert is suggesting some of those changes.  Outrigger races tend to be longer distances so you would want to minimize excess and unnecessary movements.  The same can be said for dragon boat though.  I've always been taught power from the core and catch before pull.  Go out with some more OC experts and get more opinions, or better yet, find a good coach. 

Regarding the 5-20, I assume you are talking about the start.  OC starts are different.  What works in dragon boat may not work in outrigger and vice versa. 3-20, 5-10, 4-16, 5-16, 6-16.  It really comes down to what will work for the team.

Now this is a good read.

Colossus...  I need your expert advice. 

i bend my elbow... keep my head down, most of the time staring at my feet, and I bob like a chicken. 

What do I do to make myself faster??? 

Eat Weet-a-bix Berry

paddle like the guy in your avatar.  he seems to be moving pretty quickly.   msn(k)

 Hi all ,
 Thanks for the feedback !!I did not buy into his" expert "advice for a second. I can assure you he was not pulling my leg. Our d.b. coach also was on the boat trying to explain a few things to him  but he did not hear. I recognize there are many different styles but that is not what I am referring to .I cannot comprehend that the basics are not the same ,solid catch,not pulling blade before fully buried,using core etc.
The 5 20 I am referring to is 5 degree sit up body position to a 20 degree forward lean  (we are also trying to minimize body movement in the d.b.)
The high top arm he was referring to was the height of our top arm his argument ....lifting top arm any higher than forehead would result in a loss of power.
High top arm - would you all agree bringing top arm into the boat for either would not be beneficial(more so d.b.)?
He was very adamant about his exit being more beneficial to a d.b.
He felt recovery was quicker ,I think complete opposite looks like alot of time  in the air and not in water.
Our "expert" is only with us for a short time just getting us "ready to go out on our own.
I really am liking the feedback keep it coming !!!
                                           Thanks.

where are you paddling out of?  who is this dude?

how does one become an "expert"???  ;)

Post here.

PS: You are now an expert.

PPS: Hey, so am I!

Check this site out .... they might have some good ideas for you:

http://www.ocpaddler.com/forum

Not from what I always hear from OC coaches.  It is always to put the blade all the way in before you pull.  Otherwise, you might as well have a smaller blade on your paddle.

However, the 5-20 "sit up" is not favored in OC from what I see, since the lighter boat tends to bounce more if you "sit up".  Also, the OC paddle being bent forward keeps the blade closer to vertical on average through the stroke, so the usefulness of the "sit up" in DB (with straight paddles) to keep the blade closer to vertical through more of the stroke is not as applicable to OC.  Given the lesser or nonexistent advantage for doing the "sit up" in OC, and the greater disadvantage as well as making the stroke harder to learn and do properly, I would not expect it to be used in OC much, except perhaps by clubs that do mostly DB using the "sit up".

Lifting the top arm high on exit may be a more paddling style thing -- but it may increase the risk of shoulder injury in some people.  But the top arm should not be coming in too low either on exit, since that is wasted motion.  DB paddlers may need to make some adjustment in the exit to avoid slapping waves too much when padding OC in rougher water than a DB can safely go in.

Paddling styles do vary from club to club (i.e. different OC clubs may have different styles, as different DB clubs may have different styles).  So you may want to find paddlers from other OC clubs as well to see what they have to say.

[Purged]* I have seen this style with a lot of former recreational canoeist.  They are more long distance, less strenuous type of paddling in comparison to iron OC-6 competitors and sprint dragon boaters.  Unfortunately, this does style does not maximize power and efficiency; however, it does allow the body to move in a regular, circular movement.  The people who use this style with me were usually grand-master level not interested in making great distances in the practice.


Super high top hand (above your head) is great if you want to spear the water.  Low top hand (forehead level) angles out the blade further forward for a longer stroke.


Yes, you want the blade to skim the water in the recovery.  The recovery should be slow, as you are in a long distance race, not a sprint, and you want to take advantage of the glide.  The blade is brought high in case of big waves.  No, you still want to use the least amount of strength, so you don't want it so high that it takes energy to lift the blade.  Also you don't want to drop the top arm low as it take energy to bring it back high again for the pre-catch.  A trick would be to use the top hand to twist the blade, so the blade feathers the water (and cuts through those pesky rogue waves).

As for everything else (2-5), I totally disagree with.  With myself, I could last 90 seconds with arms, longer with lats, but it is the core that keeps you going. You need the good catch or else you are pulling air. You need leg drive as it is part of the core (total body motion). You need to lean to get a further reach.

If you want to see an example, try this (without jumping out of the boat :) )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLTXVCHj5sI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAHE5ooUHMI
We love youtube!

*Apologies to Colossus, I didn't read the first line of his response: first off i'll say this:  different strokes for different folks.  what works for some people might not necessarily work for others.

not once did i say he was "wrong".  in fact, the first thing i wrote was "what works for some doesn't always work for others".  what i DID alude to, was that the technique said "expert" was preaching was FAR from efficient.  there is no such thing as a "wrong" technique on the greater scheme of things.  there is lack of efficiency, there is incorrect technique when comparing to a desired model, but no "wrong" technique.  BUT, no matter the purpose of the paddle (leisurely, or for racing), efficient technique is desirable.

perhaps you should read posts properly before trying to call people out on things you don't know much about?

and take all the fun out of the forum? what the heck are you thinking?!

eh.  tired of him/her flapping his/her fingers on and on about topics they have no in-depth knowledge or information about.  its not nearly as bad here (yet?) as it was on the east coast forum until several people (hopefully?) put said person in their proper place. 

*edit*  this probably makes me sound like a complete jerk, prick, ass, etc, but whatever.  go read the east coast forums to get an idea about what i'm talking about.  there is a difference between ignorant posting and KNOWING you're posting out of ignorance and accepting correction, and ignorant posting thinking you know a whole lot of everything about whatever the post concerns.  backwards rowing tends to do a lot of the latter. 

I stand corrected and will correct my post.  I did not see the first line in Colossus's response.