Dragon Boat West

As a first year manager, I'm asking for some advice.  In my experience on other teams I haven't come across this situation before personally, but it must have happened somewhere.

Most of you were in Kelowna on Sunday and saw the racing conditions.  When marshalling at the docks, our caller was speaking to our paddlers about the dangerous water and one first-year paddler told her to shut up and f*&* off. 

How would you deal with that paddler?  It happened at the end of the season so he's already off the team (he wants to switch to a competitive team, although he only attended 3 practices total between Alcan and Kelowna), but what advice would you give the caller and the manager?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.

red,

For me, I have been told that many times.  And I have said that to people many times.  Of course, context is important.

Having said that, my experience has been there is a clear boat hierarchy on the water because of safety reasons.  This would include beer league teams to ultra competitive teams.  During a race, it would be steersperson in command and drummer in second command.  The paddlers, even veterans or coaches, are to follow them.  Any disrespect to that chain of command generally gets to condemnation of the entire boat.  During a practice, the coach would top the steersperson for obvious reasons.

On land, there is greater flexibility with insubordination.  If it had been me mouthing off like a total jerk, and if the coach, who usually does the line-up, was there, I would have been pulled by the coach and replaced with a spare.  And that would have been instantaneous.  If less than total jerk, I would have had the entire team yell at me to apologize and shut up, as they are there to listen to last minute instructions on the race.

Managers (who are not team captains) who do admin work, generally does not deal with this interpersonality craziness. Team captains, they get involved on dry land, and since you're not on the water, you have greater choices on how to deal with the situation.

As for your specific example, good riddance, and besides, if he is going to a competitive team, that kind of behaviour will get him off the team pretty quick.

heh... there is one of those on every team each season i think.  its almost like a rite of passage.  if he/she hadn't already left the team, personally i'd be kicking him/her to the curb. it sounds like they weren't really fitting the team dynamic anyway...

Oh, yeah, one last thing about this topic.  If it was a guest paddler (ringer or whatever), they would be tossed aside.  My recent dry land experience, I was bonding with my adopted team (which will remain nameless for now), which they made me witness such terrible things as alcohol abuse, suggestive sexualized movements, assault and very tasteless jokes.  They (the adopted team) forced me to participate.  :cry:  I was corrupted by them!

Again, I have free will.  If it was that bad, I could walk away (instead of telling them off from your example above),


or, in my case, participate! Shut up and paddle! my coach would say.
Here is an example of bad stuff.  I am not sure how this guy was able to paddle after all those shots.
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m92/gingersnaps1969/Kelowna%20Int%20Dragon%20Boat%20Festival%202007/P1000620.jpg)


Maybe this guy got a tongue lashing:


So many ways to punish someone in this sport.

Every paddler has the choice to decide NOT to paddle in conditions they deem too dangerous.  However, telling the caller to **** off seems to be overstating the point, attention seeking and ultimately disrespectful to the individual and to the team as a whole.  :lol:  You've already said this person had been to few practices since the end of June....is it possible that the attitude is trying to make up for the lack of performance and committment?  I'd show that paddler the door! :lol:

Red, goodbye and good riddance to that guy.  I'm sure everyone on your team who heard him say that would agree that he was being an ***hole. 

Our club went through this a couple of years ago and it caused enough of a rift that we saw some people leave the club.

The lesson learned, (IMO):  someone must immediately take charge and eliminate such chatter from the ranks of unwashed souls in the boat. 

Certainly there is a hierarchy of steersperson/helmsman/goofy hat guy, then caller/drummer while the boat is in racing conditions.  This is necessary to ensure the safety of the entire boat.  During other times (ie practices), perhaps the coach is on the boat and could be either steering, drumming, paddling or simply seated somewhere in the boat observing.  Someone has to take control and make it clear that any excessively negative commentary or criticism be saved for a private discussion after the practice.  It's up to the appropriate leader to take charge and cut back the negative energy before it evolves into a larger problem.  If it means losing one vocal member while keeping the rest of the like-minded people moving in the right direction, so be it.

The coach should pull the "1st yr" paddler aside and let him know that his actions won't be tolerated ever and give him/her a choice if either "shut up and paddle" or find another team.

He wants to paddle competitive??  good luck with that attitude!!!

I would agree with all the comments above and would not condone such disrespect from anyone. It doesn’t matter what position you are in. You cannot use vulgar words, verbal and/or physical intimidation in any part of our society. There are usually negative consequences.

[IMO]

However, there could be an underlying issue. It’s too easy to say, “Kick him off”…but someone (ie Captain/Manager) should try to find out what and why the person said what they said. What was the reason? Is it personal between the two of them (drummer and paddler, they could have been dating and he’s upset with her), is this person on some type of medication, or who knows what??? And that’s the question…what caused him to say that?

After finding out some facts and if at that time, it’s deemed that the person does not respect or care to deal with the issue, then you are left with very limited options. If the person recognizes that it was inappropriate and wishes to make amends AND is willing to change – then try to work with them…

By out casting them immediately, it doesn’t give people a lot of chance to grow and become better. In life we all make mistakes and poor judgment calls, but if we only tried to work with others, it could be better life for everyone. 

I wish you the best of luck but I hope there is a happy resolution to this situation.

Thank you all for these comments.  If there's any more please keep it coming.  If he had said it to her onland to her as a person, that'd be different, but it was said while she was explaining the water conditions and other safety issues.

In response to some of your questions/comments:
- The only comment made in response from any other paddler was the girl in the seat behind who told the caller to 'relax'.  Nobody told him to smarten up.
- The remark wasn't made regarding the paddler's choice to paddle with the rough water, he was gung ho to get out there, he just didn't want to listen to the caller's instructions. 
- Our steers was one of the festival pool during Sunday's race (due to the water conditions) and didn't hear the remarks. 
- There was no particular issue between them before Kelowna, but he had been disregarding team instructions all weekend, he didn't even arrive onsite until 30 minutes before our posted race time. 

**
I sincerely hope that none of your teams get this guy next year.  I'm sure he has the physical ability to become a great paddler but his lack of commitment (3x in 3 months? comp teams are 3x a week) and inability to respect the chain of command makes me think that this is not the sport for him.  I've already removed him from my team list. 

Thank you, and I'd love to hear any more comments on this.

there should be a "do not let this guy paddle on your team" list... kinda like a "do not date list" that they do on the beat.  :lol:

I too had this experience in the start of the season.  The team captain and i had nipped it in the butt before the problem became a cancer.   I felt real bad in the beginning, but looking back now and where my team is today, I'm real glad the problem was delt with then.

Just out of curiosity, what team are you managing ??

I guess I'll chime in here for a minute too.....

I think it's safe to say (IMO) that what he said to her was to some degree an aggressive verbal attack (for lack of a better description).  A big crybaby having a temper tantrum for whatever reason and he took it out on her.

I think there is one additional thing  to consider....(IMHO)

It doesn't matter if they had a personal disagreement between themselves really.  Dating or not dating.  On land or on water - Dragonboat protocall or not - This is just a matter of human respect and clearly he didn't exercise that.  Poor judgement on his part for sure.

Something else to think about:     Most or all of the men I know would do their best to choose different words when addressing a woman - even in an arguement. 

Everyone slips up sometimes but IMO, this one guy has no class.

I have no idea how your caller felt and I know there are 2 sides to every story, but lets not forget we are all people first and whatever the problem - it must be worked out better than that.  No one should have to put up with that.  (Male or Female)

I'd say good riddence to him.  Who needs him anyway.  He had no commitment.

hey puppy... you should post the "evolution of a paddler"... that was good reading.  this paddler is approaching second year and probably thinks he's the king of s!%^s.

EDIT:  FOUND IT!  http://www.dragonboatwest.net/index.php?topic=2322.0 (http://www.dragonboatwest.net/index.php?topic=2322.0)

well if someone is so disrespectful and poor sportsmanship then they won't last long on a competitive team either.  dragonboat is a TEAM sport.  if that individual can't grasp that concept and continues to be abrassive then there is really nothing you can do to help him.  you don't need people like that on your boat... it just ruins the team dynamics. 

[quote author=red link=topic=4668.msg46338#- There was no particular issue between them before Kelowna, but he had been disregarding team instructions all weekend, he didn't even arrive onsite until 30 minutes before our posted race time. 

**
I sincerely hope that none of your teams get this guy next year.  I'm sure he has the physical ability to become a great paddler but his lack of commitment (3x in 3 months? comp teams are 3x a week) and inability to respect the chain of command makes me think that this is not the sport for him.  I've already removed him from my team list. 

Thank you, and I'd love to hear any more comments on this.
[/quote]
I'm a bit surprised that that he was even allowed to paddle given he showed such lack of commitment.  Hopefully, other, more committed paddlers were not sitting out.

This guy gives me goose bumps!  As a caller/paddler on a comp. team - I cannot imagine this happening on our team.  First we listen to our steers, listen to our caller and if as a caller I ever had the unfortunate occasion to have someone like this on our team, I would motion to our steers to head out to the middle of the lake where I would drop him off - kidding - but working hard with the rest of our team at a comp level, I know our captain would be right in there and deal with it professionally.  We all have respect for one another and that kind of language only shows that this peron does not know what team work means, hopefully a lesson learned to him.   My heart goes out to that caller and hang in there - you are way above!

The actions of this individual are of course inexcusable and should be dealt with accordingly.

This kind of behaviour is the kiss of death for a team if it is not jumped on and squashed immediately and openly. To do so sends the message to anyone who may consider this kind of behaviour. As a captain I made this mistake earlier this year, and believe you me it was not easy to deal with.

I know that we all have outside influences that affect our behaviour (fight with wife, sick mother, constipation) but we are all adults in control of our outside voice.

I would recommend to any team that they discuss this kind of behaviour and its effect on team morale, and that it be reiterated frequently, but do it BEFORE it can happen. Maintenance of team morale is everyone's responsibility. And it is a HUGE part of a successful team.

If despite this you need to fight, take off your respective jerseys, go someplace else and don't come back until it is resolved.

to Bolero: We had no other paddlers sitting out, as it was we had to borrow a few to have enough.  The caller didn't feel she could boot him at that point, already being short paddlers.  But no others had to sit out for him.

If weather conditions on Sunday had been better and races were on schedule he would not have been on the boat, it would have been too late for him to marshall.  I know Kelowna is a fun festival with lots of festivities, but all the other teams managed to get there on time. 

Red, lots of good advice in the preceding notes.

In a situation like this its always a tough call because it often seems like there can only be 2 possible outcomes....(1) maintain the dignity of the team and the caller by immediately confronting him about his behavior and risk not having him for the race or (2) let the offense slide now and deal with it later, if at all (the chickensh*t option).

My own approach as a long-time paddler, captain, coach and race offical (and I have seen every bad kind of behavior imaginable) is to deal with things up front especially in the face of such open and blatantly inappropriate misbehavior... I would select option (1) and explain to the team and the offender:
(a) that the remarks were rude and uncalled for;
(b) that everyone on the team is excited and wants to get on with racing even in the rough water but this does not condone or excuse the offense to the drummer and the team (even tho the foul language was addressed to an individual treat it as an offence to the entire team);
(c) explain to the offender that he/she has a choice - apologize to all for the words said in the heat of the moment (i.e. make it a reasonable option for the offender to apologize) or leave the boat.

No matter what choice the offender makes, follow up with him after the race - if he apologized make sure he knows that he will be kicked off the team if it happens again; if he did not apologize and was kicked off the boat before the race then advise him that he is also off the team and that the stigma of being kicked off the team will go with him (and make sure it does!).

By the way, the captain should have been on top of this particually if the manager is not in the boat.


Thats my 2 cents - hope it helps.

Although i am a new paddler, and kelowna was one of my first festivals. I know if i was in that boat and that paddler said that, i would be alarmed! the water was very rough out there, and i was extremely worried, not about my safety! but that i would not be able to race! (how's that for extreme behavior?!) I betcha the guy had too much adrenalin coursing thru his ears! all the more reason, in rough conditions, to listen to the people in charge!  I don't care about the language thing... but by his behavior, i would've  known that he was a risk, probably one of the first people to panic if anything went wrong! Ha! i would've pointedly ignored him, and repeated the info..that's all. You are competing, racing...go with....go hard.  People blunder for two reasons, lack of experience, lack of information....he had both going for him. How embarassing for him! he'll probably have a hard time living that one down. Oh well...