Dragon Boat West

Alcan's huge and teams come from all over western Canada and US - so ya, it's a great indicator of where a team stands in a big arena. But is it the only festival that counts? Is it the only festival teams take their best crews to? Is it the only festival teams gear their training program to peak for? Of course not. The only people who think so are on teams that do Alcan, maybe a few small LML fun festivals, and nothing else. (Fortunately most race organizers look a little further than Alcan when they're setting the grid.) A lot of Vancouver residents are Van-centric. That's the way it is, that's the way it's always been, and it's not only in the paddling world. ARMY, leave these poor souls to their delusions, would ya?   :wink:
 
Kelowna is HUGE fun whether you're there to win, or to party, or to see how far you can push one without jeopardizing the other! Have a great time everyone!

Thanks paddleho....that is precisely what I was getting at.  It seems very
"Alcan-centric" from the LML.  :roll:

It is fine to let them all be delusional, as long as the organizers bother to check that is all that matters. Kelowna is usually great at that, they have a record of temas from past years and they look at the current season. Some island teams have even called the organizers to tell them the make-up of their team so that they get seeded properly.

ie) a highly competitive team that has taken on more highly competitive paddlers and formed a mixed team with a new name that would not be recognized by organizers. Sounds like a very fair thing to do. A lot more considerate than it would be to put in a FCRCC + GD team and call them the "Dragon Arse's" or something like that when nobody knows what kind of team it would be.

Not sure how this LML/Island debate started but I think it was the Island people.  They must be getting ansy to get off the Island (you are further away now from the mainland, based on the island sliding west).  

Stop the bashing as it serves no purpose, if you are trying to get the LML teams "angry" it won't happen (I think  :D ).

Seriously,  there are only 2 festivals that competitive teams go to regularly, Vancouver and Victoria.  Everything else is a fun festival for the more competitive teams.  That does not mean they are not good festivals but for the competitive teams (from both the Island and LML) they go for fun.   I think most people realize there is a part of this sport that is mental and how much there is shows in the finals.  In the end, all the festivals are great for beginner/intermediate teams to build so that they can be competitive with the likes of GD, FCRCC, the Dog team (aka Subaru), or Pac Reach.  To see the best go to Alcan and Victoria.

I am sure the moderators will move this to another thread since it is off topic.

AMO

Van-centric is the perfect term!

The LML teams don't have to do much travelling to get to Alcan so no wonder their focus is mainly upon this Festival.  Glad to hear some other Island Paddlers are on the same wave length.

Alcan has also taken a turn where they are not treating the Breast Cancer Survivor teams with the respect they deserve, for this I say "shame on them".  I know of a few Island teams who have not entered Alcan for this very reason.  

Lets kick it up in Kelowna....

FYI, reason why there wasn't any breast cancer survivor teams in this year's Alcan was due to the World's breast cancer race on the weekend following Alcan.  It is not because Alcan is not treating the BCS teams with respect.



And vice versa for island teams...  Can you tell me how many teams on the island make the Victoria festival their main focus of the year???

Well aware of the Worlds Breast Cancer Festival in Vancouver...the issues that arose started the year before.

I am curious?  The Alcan festival is in June....why would any team peak so early in the season?  My team starts practising in March/April with the view of doing our best in about 5 festivals over the season, but aim to be at our best in August for the Victoria festival (home court, so to speak).  We are thinking of going to Alcan next year but really only because it would give us a good measure of where we are in June as related to where we would like to be in August, and we would like to try for at least one festival per month over the season.  Last year our last races were in Kelowna and we did OK, this year we went to San Francisco and likewise did OK.  

So....why just train and practice for a high point of the season that is in June?

Having said all that.....there are a lot of incredible teams from Vancouver...and it is always a pleasure racing against them, even though we usually lose :lol:  But then, we lose to some great teams from the island on a regular basis as well.

I have only been paddling for 3 years, but, wow, what a sport!

b/c Alcan is the Main Event.  The biggest and best DB event on the westcoast.  

I think Kelowna has the potential to surpass the Vancouver race.  But it all depends what people want out of it.

If Kelowna wanted to started attracting all the A Teams around, start offering some cash purses.  That'll make a few eyeballs sticky.

Alcan might be the biggest, but the best is open to interpetation....wasn't that the jist of this discussion to begin with?

You know some of these statements make me sick.

 Please stop whining about respect us and this and that and just go out there and race  ! Real racers don't care about these things and are just happy racing in any race

 Silly rec. paddlers !

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH... i am SO sick of STUPID people telling others to stop whining.  THIS IS A FRIGGIN' FORUM... IT'S A DISCUSSION BOARD.  LET THEM DISCUSS!!!!!!!  STOP MAKING US FEEL DUMB FOR SPEAKING OUR MINDS.  And stop assuming that everyone that is smart enough to express what they're thinking is a "rec. paddler"

Now that I've gotten that off my chest, everyone, please feel free to continue your ramblings and share with us your thoughts so others may see things from a different perspective.   :)

I think that Alcan is THE big event of the West.  You gotta participate in that if you're seroius about this sport (Rec AND comp teams can be serious.)  If not, you're missing out!

Done


Sorry for the rehash but Moaner beat me to it while I was typing and working and having lunch... In defense of Alcan, it should be noted that the reason there were no Breast Cancer Survivor races this year at Alcan was that the organizers created the Breast Cancer 10th Anniversary Race and Celebration that took place on June 25th and 26th. This event attracted around 64 teams from across Canada and 8 countries including Poland, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore and the US. I attended this event and was rather impressed with the setup. Would these teams get as much attention and respect if it were part of the Alcan Festival? Considering that many of the paddlers (LML and Island alike) consider the festival-side of Alcan, to put it lightly, a complete mess... I would say it was a very respectable decision for the organizers to devote additional time and effort towards this event rather than plugging in a couple more heats within the big festival. Don't get me wrong, Alcan has its issues especially when you consider the festival-side.

Also... those same race organizers of Alcan were the same ones that the Kelowna festival went to after the festival departed ways with F2000 to run their races. What everyone needs to keep in their mind is that festivals are run by one organization that contracts out another organization to run the race portion. When people complain about festivals, think about what you have a problem with.. the racing itself or the actual festival.

Alcan is held in June because it originally was a festival that celebrated an important time of year in the Chinese culture. As it was the only race at the time, I would only assume that this race was where the teams concentrated their efforts and over time the attraction and the budget grew. Even with all the races sprouting around the LML lately, this is still the one that has the biggest budget, with the most history, attracts the most competitive level teams and the one that most people off the street knows about. I think it's probably a prestige thing as well. What team doesn't want to say that they did well at the oldest and biggest festival on the West Coast.


Kelowna does attract "A teams". The issue is that Kelowna is viewed as a winding down festival where teams have done their "Big Race" already and are looking for a good time. There's definately "A Teams" but it's safe to safe many of them haven't brought their "A Game" to the race. Kelowna needs to remove that stigma of being a wind-down fun race before teams will take it seriously. Considering the division between the Mainland and the Island, maybe we could talk to the organizers to setup a year-end race between the top three placements in Alcan vs. the top 3 from Victoria. The festival where the winner of that race gets to be called the "Big Race" for the following season. That should bring some "A teams w/ their A Game" to Kelowna

In regards to the "Van-centric" comments.. This forum started in Vancouver before word got to the other regions. And considering that many of the users are still in their first or second year (see here. (http://www.dragonboatwest.net/viewtopic.php?t=1789)) With little or no experience outside their region, of course they're going to be "region-centric" with their comments and see Alcan as the big prize and skew their perceptions. I'm pretty sure new paddlers that only race on the  Island see Victoria as the big race. One of the main reasons the admins created this website was so we could share information across the different areas and making generalizations doesn't help the sport.

I for one would love to see more voices from the Island, Alberta, and even down south (other than Hans and his comments on his Canadian Jinx.:wink: Expect my team to be back next year... we've got some unfinished business to attend to. :twisted:)

Sorry if this post sounds scattered but it was written over various sessions  throughout the day.

Having the pleasure of racing in LML and the Island with LML and Victoria teams, I believe the biggest obstacle in racing in Alcan is the cost (entry Fees, Travel accomodations etc.) and know that most VI teams peak for the Victoria festival rather than Alcan. I think it is funny the Islanders have a VI championship the week before the Victoria festival and no LML teams go. I heard they were allowing LML teams this year? (woodman? do u know?)
As for being the biggest and best (Alcan), the number of teams entering make it the biggest but I would not classify it as the "best" festival by a long shot. It is a good measure to see where your team ranks against the top comp teams in the west but once again that is a snapshot of your teams performance for that time window only.




Thats not nice! Silly rec teams make it to comp one day! And there are a lot more Rec teams than comp  Be nice or they'll drink all the beer before you get off the water from your final race.... :lol:

Good to hear Rec paddlers are entitled to an opinion on this forum too!
Not everyone wants to be a Comp paddler even if they have paddled for several years.

As for the 10 Years Abreast Celebration, it was exactly that and just what the doctored ordered for the Survivor teams after Alcan tried to raise their fees for these teams only.   I too was there and had a fantastic time!

I appreciate the comments on the fact that the work is contracting out for the actual Festival end of things.  This sport has now become 'big business" and we gain and lose with that.

Keep that discussion coming.  For those of you who are "sickened" by a different point of view, don't read it.

This actually is one of the best discussions on this board for some time...imho.

The VI festival was started several years ago, initially to give stew teams from the GRPC (The Gorge, as we know it....a more than equal club to the FC! :) ) a taste of what would happen the next weekend at the Victoria Festival...it was so successful that it has been expanded....BUT, there are only so many lanes, and so many races, in one day...so, yes, I think teams from outside the island could get in (and would be welcomed!), but it is just one of those things....How many slots do you have, and what is the purpose of the festival?  On the same hand, we go to Richmond....how many teams try to come to Victoria?  Why is Alcan better than Victoria?

I don't think, personally that there are many differences once you get in a boat.  Also, Nanaimo is awesome!

I find this thread to be very interesting....when our team goes to a festival, we paddle as hard as we can...and each festival ranks equally.  We are not a big club, that may make a difference.

I am sort of looking forward to going to Alcan next year, not that it is the best, but that it is the biggest.......do not confuse the two.

Again, I think that a festival in June just gives good indications of where a team is.....so comp teams disband after Alcan?  I think not.   My team will never go to the worlds (except as spectators), so I would think that would be some sort of chalice?

All festivals are good.....paddling is just awesome.   It was suggested in our boat that we sell a t-shirt that said "Shut Up and Paddle"

Not a bad sentiment.

Well said Woodsman.  Diversity; isn't it a great thing!

WHAT THE HELL DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH KELOWNA PREDICTIONS?

And can someone explain to me whoever said the VANCOUVER race held in June is the only indicator?
Why don't people get their FACTS correct before the post .....

Down boy! :upsidehead: Bad dog!

I've moved this post to this thread from the Kelowna Predictions because I feel that the responses will fall along with this debate. It could be a stretch but I think the post that set ARMY off may be this one...


It could be that they interpreted the posting as "Since they didn't enter Alcan. they're a rec team." Of course I'm not a mind reader though...

I personally can't stand the "us vs. them" attitude that reared its head after the Richmond Festival (warranted or not).  I think we all can agree that the 3 main festivals (Alcan, Victoria, and Kelowna) are all a fairly accurate yardstick of a team's current performance level.  I have always thought that the first major race of the season, which happens to be Alcan, was scheduled too early in the season to be the big target for the year.  But as chaos stated earlier, it has always been at that time of year for reasons other than racing.

Schedule wise, Victoria may be a better "peak" of the season than Alcan, (and Kelowna since the time of year makes it a wind-down festival), but in terms of teams attending, Alcan does deserve its "big race" moniker.  because more teams from out of province attend Alcan, such as from the California area, which Victoria can not boast.  It all comes down to cost and logistics.  Until they build a bridge or have cheaper ferries, island teams will find it difficult to make the trek to Alcan and vice versa for LML teams to Victoria.  And I guess three festivals in August are out of the question. :wink:

I would be interested in knowing how all teams treat out of town festivals.  Fun or performance?  I know that personally, going out of town for a festival is a mini vacation, and focus on fun is greater than beating all other teams (not that I don't paddle hard, I just don't need a medal to make my weekend enjoyable).  Truth be told, I enjoyed Victoria much more than Alcan.

I didn't realize that this rant would start this kind of debate.

Guido: The point I was making is that there is a huge amount of reference to Alcan throughout the posts on this site. A large part of that is because of the fact that a majority of paddlers are from the LML and do go to Alcan. There is nothing wrong with that. I have a problem, however, with people referencing a race in June when it is September now. A lot has changed. Live in the now.

Chaos: The point I was trying to make was that there are many other festivals that have websites with results posted. If a team doesn't know what another team is like, then they can always do some research and find out how they have done in previous festivals. This is much easier than assuming because they weren't at Alcan or Richmond that they must not be "competitive paddlers".

I mean no ill-will to the LML paddlers. A lot of Island teams used to go to Alcan but with entry costs and travel costs, it is hard to decide what festivals to go to and Alcan lost out for a lot of teams when Nanaimo came online.  Alcan is just too big and dis-organized for many.  I hear they can learn a lot from Calgary.

Alcan may have a lot of teams, but it may not be the best festival. A great festival will attract the best teams from all over. I know Alcan tries to do this, but it is difficult.

Will there ever be a way to settle who the best really is? No; because we all go to different festivals that fit our schedules and personal expense constraints. Not all teams that do well are hard-core freaks who have noithing in their lives but paddling. It isn't worth a few hundred bucks each to go to Alcan. As for cash prizes...that is a whole other level of sport. The fun would disappear as soon as money was on the line.

All I am asking is that before making predictions about who will do the best at a festival, please check results from the WHOLE season instead of just Alcan. A lot of high calibre teams have been at various festivals and performance against them throughout the year is a better indicator of strength than one weekend festival held in June.

is very well put! I couldn't have said it any differently myself. I swear I know the dude but I was told to stop asking who's who on here so I won't. LOL :roll: Actually I don't know anyone from the ARMY team so I most likely have no clue who he is!

I think what ALCAN is risking though is that with the high cost of entry fees they will lose more teams. Teams that may be in it for the fun with a bit of racing or teams that are here for the racing and try to have fun either right after or during so long as the coach doesn't catch you!  :oops: For crying out loud it is becoming more about making money than it is about the racing. I am aware there are a whole bunch of other things going on with respect to most festivals but it is getting out of hand.

Thats why Festivals like Nanaimo will grow. A well run FUN festival where paddlers race hard and party Together harder. Its not all about the beer but Hey!, its a great part of it. Putting Money on the line would bascially eliminate the rec teams from entering and leavet he a very small field indeed of probably non DB teams but teams of non DB paddlers teaming together to win. (OC, KAyak etc.)
Its unfortunatley all about the money if proceeds go to benefit a good cause and I get a few strokes in and have some good racing and beer, I'm happy

I am posting way too much, but feel strongly.  I agree with the last few posts...dragon boating is awesome, the festivals are good, and the people are incredible.  

Put prize money in the formula?...death.

I believe that festivals are fun, and should celebrate the sport.  It is unfortunate, that travel costs can prohibit some teams from going to some festivals....yet...hell....go to what you can afford -- they are usually all fun (well, except maybe the Saturday of Kelowna last year, but that was not the festival's fault)

Sorry, I will try not to post again or so much.....it has been a great season, and I have enjoyed myself immensely -- got some bookmarks, got some hardware....but had an awesome time.

Can I ask any more of my investment?

Thanks to all....see you next year at some venue....if not the gym this winter.

That was a joke right  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Comparing a festival with 200 teams to one with 50 teams is not even worthy.  If you are a "rec" paddler Calgary can be another one of your Fun Festivals to put on the calendar.  If you are a rec team from the "Island" or LML go to Calgary if you want a shot at racing in the top division (and maybe even getting a medal).  Organization etc in Calgary was not good anytime I was there, in fact quite disorganized and some of there rules make you think you were at a FMG event (read the DB East forum if you don't know FMG).

How do I know, I was there a couple of times 2 years ago and the only real competition for a comp team is Calgary Canoe otherwise it is like racing Rec B (Alcan) or Bronze/Silver Division (Victoria) teams.

Comparing a festival with 200 (Alcan) teams to one with 90 (Victoria) is a stretch.  The racing in Victoria has definitely gotten better but it is still not at the level of Alcan.  Alcan could definitely learn something from Victoria in regards to treating the paddlers off the water.

In the end, each festival/regatta have their good points and their not so good points, we luckily have a choice.  Now we just need to find the money.

Why don't you get the correct facts  before you make statements like this.  You have no idea how much information is out there.  You have no idea how much research is done before any predictions are made...MR ARMY.  You have no idea what it takes to put on a set of races and how the race director/committee go about doing their rankings.  

As Tiger says....you can't compare a Calgary race and a Vancouver race.  I've been there 5 times since 1992 and hell....the only competition for us there has been the Calgary Husky Oil team(no longer in existence), Pond Scum from Regina, and now..Calgary Canoe Club(when they have their full roster).  In fact....it took Calgary till 2001 to go to the 500 metre format.....that's how far behind they are.  They have the worst officials(well it's actually a toss up between GOROW and them) AND the worst starters(again...a toss up with GOROW).

The same goes for Islandgirl and her comment on AIAB and the Vancouver races.  Get your facts correct before you make such comments.   You know nothing about the wheelings and dealings of what went on with AIAB and Vancouver.
In fact I sat in on a couple of meetings with AIAB in Sept 2004 to start the organization for their 1st North American Breast Cancer Championship Celebration.  

I give up.....just.... :blasted:

:clap: ... You tell 'em Guido.  Research, then speak your mind.  I have not been back to the Victoria Festival for years.  For competitive teams the race course is sub-standard.  Where are the lines?  I think we all heard about lack of proper lines at last years fiasco of a semi-final and final.  Also didn't the beer garden run out of  :Cheers: ???  And the crowds from the racer's village to the docks.  Sorry but I am very pro-Alcan, afterall that is where it all began many moons ago.  Even when I was a rec level paddler my team always trained hard into Alcan then "slacked" off during the summer and got together for a few practices for Kelowna.  But I don't knock the quality of paddlers and teams from the Island...Gorging, Koi and the up and coming Navy, Extreme Reach...  There are many.

I am not knocking all of the effort of the race organizers and volunteers Guido, so please do not put words onto my keyboard. I appreciate the hard work that goes into providing us all a place to race.

To say I have no idea how much information is out there is pretty rude. Many websites have results pages that are posted after festivals, other links are available online that archive past fesitvals with results. I am aware that there are tons of informaiton out there and it is hard to sift through all of it. I guess a better way is to say that mistakes are sometimes made and it is nice to try to avoid as many as possible by using available resources to seed teams for their races.

As for Victoria, I think it is a well run festival but could do with improvements....as can ALL festivals. It is only with improvements that paddlers want will festivals survive, because with the number of events growing each year, those that don't attract teams will surely die.

I would love to see Victoria bring in a lane / buoy system like Kelowna. Let us not forget that a few teams finished out of their lane despite all those nice big markers. Also, the cost involved to set up a rowing style course would be so high that entrance fees would skyrocket end exclude a lot of teams. It is good to want to improve festivals but we neeed to be realistic. That sort of course is necessary for a WCC Championship where the whole world comes and a lot is on the line...but for a weekend festival?

I guess if some paddlers are so high-calibre that they need perfectly roped off lanes so they can maintain a course and not collide, need flat calm perfect basin-water to paddle, and instant digital replay with olympic stopwatches on each boat and sensors at the finish line, then they will have to find that "Ultimate Festival" that exists somewehere in a perfect universe.

[/quote]

Hi Army

Well reasoned arguements and good observations.

I think you are more objective than some, here.

Alcan is not perfect, but it IS significant.

With far more venues now, it can only be expected that many teams will feel they can have more enjoyment or better spend their money elsewhere. That's the beauty of CHOICE.

Guido tends to be very critical of other venues and can be a bit geocentric.

He is defensive, as he has been involved in the Alcan officiating for many years.
However, he no longer has a position there and may not have all the facts.

In fact he had his own very vocal beefs on this forum about 2005 ALCAN.

Alcan will be run differently this year, it may be worth a look.

Cheers,

Tex

Ok
I have only been to Alcan as a spectator and raced in Vic once.  From what I could tell the Alcan festival could use some work around the festival side, the racing in Vic was awesome the year I was there, but then I am not on a comp team.

As far as teams from Calgary or Edm going to Alcan going to Alcan and being competitive that is always going to be a stretch based on the fact that the festival is in June and we can't get on the water till mid to end of May (not so much practice time avail).  Once we get to say Aug or Sept we are much more competitive as we have had more time on the water, thus you will see very few teams from Alberta at Alcan where you see more in Vic.   

As for Calgary teams being Rec B or silver/bronze for competitiveness lets look at the practice time differences.  As mentioned earlier we only get on the water in mid may (west coast team start in Feb or Mar??).  Due to our practice location (the Glenmore Res, Calgary's drinking water) the City restricts the # of practice sessions available, thus most teams may get 1 practice a week if they are lucky.  So we are now comparing teams that start practicing in Feb vs May and teams that have 2-3 practices a week vs maybe 1 (.75  More likely)  Take all that into account and I think the Calgary teams to dam good against the Van/Vic teams by the time we get to Kelowna.

Lets move onto the Calgary Festival.  Yes the past few years the officiating has sucked (this is being fixed as there are current negotiations between the Kelowna officials and Calgary, this should fix that) , but the Festival part this past year blew Van and Vic's out of the water, the Course is better then any on the west coast.

hell I am just at these festivals to paddle my ass off and have as much fun as humanly possible (and make the odd stupid bet, still paying off those beers for Pac Reach).



My 2 cents

paddleho, ARMY, non-delusional paddlers, disgruntled VI paddlers: I must be delusional.   But I wonder if you are also the type of person who's whined at the workplace to get a raise or promotion <ahem> (no pun intended, ARMY).   Just so that I stay on topic.. you're all absolutely right and correct.  You DON'T count.. stay home.

different people have dfferent perspectives for their rankings.  in the lower mainland, we focus mainly on the lower mainland races and will judge others based on these races.  so like you've said, like zephyrantes has said, if you don't come, you don't count. :)   you're not here to perform, to let us see you perform, how can we form our opinion?  no one likes a bench racer. :lol: 

i keep getting subscriptions to this thread, although i don't think i've posted in it previously, so i thought i'd throw in my unedumacted $0.02

colossus: be quiet!  you don't count!   you're a delusional LML paddler, remember? 

but i was at alcan.  its the islanders that are worthless

you're FRREEEAAAKIINNN' delusional, man!

i drank some false creek water tonight...    from the same spot the found the dead guy on saturday.  thats probably it.

don't worry colossus, it's alcan water.. how bad can it be right, paddleho/army/etc..etc..?

don't ask them, they don't count, remember?

Instead of wasting bandwidth, why don't two chat on your instant messenger programs.

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