Dragon Boat West

I was having lunch with a friend and we were discussing the state of the general competitiveness of the "sport" in the Vancouver. There is a general lack of competition in dragonboat in the area...especially when you take a look at out East. I can't say that it's always been like this or not, but I do remember years when it was tough to crack into comp. You had to actually train on the water and in the gym to make it as a Comp team. Nowadays it seems like any tom, **** or harry can do it. It could be that the paddlers on the current teams are better paddlers than those of  past years. That's open to discussion, but personally I don't think so.

I have to say that the competitions really watered down over here... with the vast majority of the teams paddling around the Creek just looking for a good time. This could be because the average dragon boater in Vancouver doesn't care for the community and just sees it as something to do. To them it's an activity and not a sport. I don't think it helps that most of the major races over here are called "Festivals", giving the notion that the races are just sideshow attractions. For example, I hope Alcan realizes that it's the paddlers that bring in the vast majority of their ticket sales with friends and families watching the races. Sorry to say it but that's the entertainment that people come for... not for what's on the stage.

Another example would be the infamous Gemini's. These are race-certified boats that only technically-sound can paddle that False Creek clubs brought in to boost the skill level in the Creek (yeah, I know it might be a stretch...). Instead of bucking down and working on technique, the majority of the teams are on the verge of rioting (still...) and ready to tar and feather the people responsible. Let's see... race in boats that we are all comfortable with but have extreme variations on how  each one goes through the water? Or race in boats that were deemed for racing by the international governing body were boat performance is standard across the fleet?

Am I saying the East has it better out there? For breeding competition, I would say yes. They have more races available to them and with larger pool of comp teams to cut their teeth on. I certainly would think that FCRCC Mixed, Pac Reach and the other Comp A teams would be better if they had more teams of their caliber to race against on a frequent basis. I could also just chalk it up to the whole West Coast stereotype that we're more laidback in general, while they're always on the go.

Maybe that's why the East doesn't take the West very seriously (Jing_Du, am I correct in this assumption?). Some people may argue that they have a larger population-base to work from out East but how do we explain the Island teams?

The Island with Victoria in particular, probably produces more competitive teams, numbers-wise than the Lower Mainland. In Vancouver's defense, we have too much to do here and people get involved with other sports....

I guess I should address Paddleho and her/his mention that she/he wanted to keep topics to "fun and  discussions of west coast paddling gossip instead of letting things deteriorate into personal jabs and insider personal references." You have to consider that the vast majority of this forum are coming from the same Mid-Low Rec community that I just indirectly addressed. They probably don't have the knowledge or interest to post anything of interest. It's only been recently that more of the "Higher Ups" have been coming here and some of these people either don't have the time like Alcan Registrar.

I'm aware that many people in the community know who I am... and I'll probably get some flack for what I've just said... Before I get jumped on by the whole community.. Do I think the Comp Teams are weak? No, but I just think they would be better if there were more of them. Also, I just want to clear up this connotation that we are the Mecca of Dragonboat... I would consider this the Land of the Lotus Eaters more...

Now let's see the maturity level on this forum... the pot is being stirred.

Mr. Chaos that must have been one long lunch  :lol:

Unfortunately my thoughts did not occur over lunch but here are some.

One thing I have noticed over the last few years is that the stronger paddlers have disbursed into many teams thus the most competitive teams have been watered down since they do not draw the cream anymore.  With the disbursement the middle of the road teams have gained some experience and have moved up a division (or 2).

Another point to think about is we are not drawing the younger crowd in or if we are then they are the party animals.  If you look at a number of the "competitive" teams the paddlers are close to or over 40 years of age.  There should be a crop of 20 somethings that should be able to displace the oldtimers but that has not happened (maybe Team Success this year will master Alcan?)

If it continues we will soon have a larger Senior's division than the open division.

With the kayak/canoe clubs getting DBs now we may see more competitive younger teams as the kayak clubs have a younger clientele.  It will take a couple of years but I think they will be the Mississaugas of the west.  Once this happens we will be just like the east, flatties against pure DB teams who are better?

Whoa!
Tell it like it is brother!
Being a fairly new member of the DB community I noticed that the FC DB paddlers are quite cliquey and that they will pretty much stick with their "elite" buddies to paddle with. Tiger hit the nail on the head when he mentioned that the elite paddling clubs are 40+ and that there are no really young teams picking up the slack.(except maybe Ruckus and FODB but they aren't COMP A yet..) AS for Flatties against True DBers racing I would put my money down on the Flat water paddlers. It comes down to conditioning (Methods) as opposed to strategies and style. Their training methods (as with OC paddlers as well) are quite different than DB paddlers. I started DB and OC at the same time so based upon my experiences the OC training methods were far superior in building power and stamina then the traditional DB methods. Its no surprise winners of the big festivals also paddle in OC or other small boats. I think a NCCP Level 3 or higher flat water or canoe coach would have a better understanding of the training methods to produce better paddlers as they have to under go a certification process which involves an understanding of the human anatomy and methods on how to fully optimize performance. Their methods would go a long way in helping dbers train more effeciently as opposed to the standard cookie cutter type drills and ladders.  While DB only has a level I certification(beginners and Novices) it would be good if the more experienced coaches shared their knowledge openly and let the newer coaches draw upon their expertise and incorporate it into their styles. Put 20 OC paddlers in a DB and I am pretty sure they will beat a lot of teams that only train in DBs
(Ie: see "Beat Pete " last year in the men’s and the combined OC team that came in second in Diamond @ Kelowna with only one practice in a DB)
I'm not saying lets get out of the DBS and jump in OCs but I think to regain our competitive edge (not that we lost it..) we in Creek have to be more open and not pigeon hole ourselves.
Change is good!

Back east, dragon boat racing is still not a full-fledged "Sport" yet, despite DB festivals having started back there in 1989, 3 years after DBs were introduced to Canada on False Creek at Expo 86.  (The first race out here was held WEST of the Cambie Bridge, which was brand new, as was the Skytrain.)

By "Sport" (vs. "sport") I mean "amateur sport" - which implies standardized rules, authentic "race officials" trained in their roles, discipline as to "roster" membership, and "league play", standard racing distances and equipment, etc. - just like any other organized, amateur sport.

DB "festival racing" lacks all of the above, east and west (and in the USA as well.)   Festivals set their own rules and prepare (or otherwise) their own officials; use whatever boat is the most convenient for them.  They may or may not have a good set of on water safety practices, it varies, because there are no regulations governing who can rent boats and start up a race (unlike sailing sport, canoeing sport, hockey, gymnastics, etc.)

Festivals need crews willing to pay big bux to participate.  That deserves repeating: festivals are not viable unless paddlers voluntarily enter and pay race fees to cover the costs, pay salaries and even have cash left over cash to donate to charities, year after year.  They provide services and entertainment to participants.  But they do not promote "the Sport"; never have, and probably never will.  But that is where all the paddlers' disposible income ends up, in the hands of the festivals they patronize.

In Halifax, Sport Nova Scotia races money for provincial sport by running a big race on Lake Banook in September.  In Victoria, Foundation 2000+ raises revenues from paddling (dragon boat) and rowing, which it then spends somehow.  So coast to coast, the multi-million dollar Canadian dragon boat "industry" (festivals, boat builders, paddler makers, event management companies, charities, Breast Cancer Survivors, etc.) are not putting a dime into the development of the Sport of DB racing.... they like things the way they are, deriving sponsorship and race entry fee revenues for whatever purposes their private interests and causes dictate or see fit.

Then there is "sport racing", which exists at the international level (IDBF) but not at the Canadian National, Provincial or Local levels (although club crew racing has been taking root in Ontario and Quebec since 2001.)

That post about a DB league - was inspired by something that started in Toronto several years ago, Summer Sizzler and Summer Sensation.  These two SS programs catered to league racing.  Apparently FCRCC is too "burnt out" to organize something this year (according to the most recent post on the matter) however IT IS NOT DIFFICULT TO ORGANIZE (provided there are some boats available.) and would only need a handful of volunteers to run.

SeaVancouver, Portland, Victoria, Kelowna, Taiwanese DB races, etc.... these are great fun for the paddling masses.  But there is no BC DB Championships. There easily could be however.  It would have to start small then gradually develop each season.

Problem is that your major DB event out here occurs in June, which is the beginning of the summer paddling season.  That is like playing the Stanley Cup in November !

Apparently the serious competitive paddlers end up crossing over to Outrigger, where they train when the weather's great.  DB trains mostly in the spring when its cold and soggy out here.

For all the complaints about Geminis' just be thankful that you are not having to train and compete in the teak wooden boats (of same length and width and number of seats, but triple the weight.)  Just be thankful you have a half decent festival, a caring race committee and some boats of relatively matched characteristics to go out and have some not "too serious" fun in.

The comp division today is nothing like it was when crews were training to compete in Hongkong in the mid-80s through mid-90s.  Now that all the major serious paddling has gravitated to the east (for a wide variety of reasons, including access to more corporate sponsorship, larger population, much higher technical standard and depth, more suitable focus, competitive orientation due to exposure to flatwater, more venues within easy driving distance, etc.) it will take a minor miracle probably to jump start any kind of true sporting critical mass, but if enough people were to want to move beyond being weekend warriors and festival roadies, then through diligence and committment it could happen.  I say this because it's already been done before, but not for quite a while.

I wanted to say what an awesome job of putting your words down to both Chaos and Jing-Du. I can not add anything more than what has already been said by both of you. Congrats!

Unfortunately I don't have any eastern experience or exposure but I would like to believe that what both of you say has some validity to it. Hopefully someone with passion about our sport can round up enough of us to get this done right once and for all. That is not to say that I am complaining about how things are run out here but not having experienced what you are all talking about how am I supposed to know that it could be better.

Once again KUDOS to you both for saying what you have. I know my eyes are wide open now!

I  raced in Montreal last yr and I think our comp teams are on par with the east . I think this year the upper comp teams would & will give the east a very very good race .

 I also agree with some that has been said. To make a good comp team you need desire ,drive and commitment .For the most part to have a sucessful comp A team ,the crew needs to have all have the same desires and goals and eat,sleep,drink paddling (hence me,lol). There are just too many teams out here where the teams cannot even fill a boat on most practice nites and thats sad. I order to become better ....a team needs to gel and work/train together and this means gym time as well as water time and attending all practices . Too show commitment ..........in the last 2 yrs ( we train all yr round) I have never missed a practice (up to 4 days a wk) even if I was sick like death warmed over or 1 time I went straight from the hospital (after 3 days in) and straight to practice and I have also trained in -9 weather all because I have goals,made a commitment and respect my team .This is what it takes to succeed and make a very good comp team

 I can remember when I was on a Rec A team that won gold in Alcan, it was hard to get everyone to commit to practice and the excuses were brutal.The team cared more about drinking and parties than it ever did about winning and they had the power to move up but the captain kept telling the team over and over it's not about winning but to just go out and have fun .I can remember in one race I got spared because they said I was "way too competitive" ( which I am ) and to teach me a lesson they sat me out for 1 race .The team lost some of it's key paddlers the following yr and went from rec A gold to rec c lower end and all because of the team attitude/outlook .

 The upper comp teams are mainly over the age of 35 and this gives maturity & better commitment that is required .Look at the grand dragons  who are over 50 and can easily take out the majority of teams on the water today .They are serious but have fun,they train hard and put the nec time in the gym as well to better themselves .Rec teams should look at teams like this ,you can have fun and train hard as well it's all about goals and commitments .

 I think in the beginning of a teams yr they need to lay out better ground rules and commitment expectations otherwise they will continue to just get people who show up every other pratice and miss weeks on end .............this leads sometimes to dispise amongst the crew who really want to move up but are held up by the few who don't care .Been there ,done that

 my 2 cents ................I love paddling  :wink:

You guys are, what, in your mid-late 20s ?  Paddlers like you,
you are the future of dragon boat racing on False Creek,
just the fact that you are contributing to this forum and
asking questions, being open minded and skeptical.

There needs to be, periodically, "p*** and vinegar",
people who want something badly and are not satisfied
with the (stagnant) status quo.  Discontent breeds
growth and innovation and change.  That has been
the course of human history at least.  Take a look at
who is "running" the local DB scene at present, the
"powers that be" and their generation of cronies.
They have developed DB in the image and vision that
THEY see it as.  They didn't get into their positions
suddenly overnight, it was years in the making.
Eventually they will "retire" and some others will
take over the reins.

The gang at FCRCC goes through periodic episodes
of revolution and upheaval (followed by burnout).
Just like any club, association or group.  This summer
you need to talk it up amongst yourselves, "what do
you want" (more than what you have already.)  Get
a group of people together who are "hungry" to go
after it.  Get help from people with experience and
learn from past history as well.  That is how the
fesitval started.  That is how FCRCC started.  That
is how Dragon Zone started. It requires political
skills and money, but it IS possible to get what you
want if you are organized and work smart.  But if
nobody wants it very badly, then be prepared to live
with what you have. When DB started there was only
faxes, not ICQ, email, websites, forums and other
means for likeminded people to connect.  The times
never been better for taking up the challenge and
going after whatever it is you would all like to see.
People in the east and other places are doing just
that.  So don't be satisfied with the present set up.

ummm............lets just say some of us are over 35 & 40 that have posted . And of those over 35 & 40  ,we are all on comp a teams

 My drive and fitness level are better now than when I was younger.I train up to 4 times a week on the water (race both db & oc ) and 4 times a week for up to 2 hrs in the gym and thats on top of my 9 hr days at work and I still have time to go out and party w/ friends .See .....I have goals and a vision of where I want to go and at this point I'm not letting anything hold me back.This is what it takes to really succeed on a comp team . Like I said I have great respect for my team and it's goals but I would love to see more competition out there to push teams to get even better in the comp divisions . Too many teams on the water are short sighted and never look into the future they can only see this season .

 Teams need to set goals as to where they want to go in the future yrs and what they want to accomplish.Not many teams do that and thats why we have what we do today . Look into the future and try to set goals for like 2006 ,2008,2010 and beyond.Where do you want your team to be ........always a rec team or move up every yr . You need to develop a good core group of paddlers that will stay w/ the team and grow .Keep them happy and they will stay and give your crew a vision and goal that they can see and reach and that will give them the drive .
 
 Anyway all I have to say is teams need to move beyond their short sightedness and look beyond and into the future and set some real goals for the team . You also need to have a very knowledgeable coach to help the team grow .If more teams took this attitude than this sport would really take off and we will have some awesome racing .So coaches and managers ..................look into the future not just this season and give your crew some true obtainable goals .........

$.

you want to see this sport become more competitive or "serious"?   Throw bigger named tobacco and/or alcohol sponsors in there which are willing to get in to the game.

Dragon Boat really just hasn't been emphasized as much here, at least not as much as other sports, through newspapers, TV, and radio. I mean, every year, around the same time, you might hear a few ads about the festival and that's it. The festival. Not the sport. People don't really know what the sport is about.

And a less important side note I have to comment on what you said about teams looking at this as an activity, not a sport, I've noticed many who join for wrong and stupid reasons. i.e. "My arms and tummy and legs look fat. This activity can fix that right up!" *ahem* if you don't want your body parts to jiggle when you run, lay off the chips and junk food.  :twisted:

Having said that, there are some that are more passionate about the sport than others.



Gemini's are awesome boats. And yes, they force paddlers to emphasize on technique. Though, I must say, smaller paddlers benefit more in these boats.  :wink:

Paddle Boy... you were sat out because you were annoying your teammates too much.  If their focus was so poor.. then why did they win the Rec A Gold medal anyway?  As for the following years results - That team welcomed many first time paddlers last year - just like they welcomed YOU the year before so maybe you can keep that in mind the next time you trash the team that got you started in the first place.  Thanks.

"I can remember when I was on a Rec A team that won gold in Alcan, it was hard to get everyone to commit to practice and the excuses were brutal.The team cared more about drinking and parties than it ever did about winning and they had the power to move up but the captain kept telling the team over and over it's not about winning but just have fun .I can remember in one race I got spared because they said I was "way too competitive" and to teach me a lesson they sat me out for 1 race .The team lost some of it's key paddlers the following yr and went from rec A gold to rec c lower end and all because of the captain & team attitude/outlook ."

Hey Waterbunny  :wink:  Not trashing you guys just telling the truth . I was way too competitve for the team and that annoyed some of you and thats why I moved on .Why do you think some of us left and you had a bunch of new paddlers the following yr ? You guys never had the want or desire to step it up and were/are more worried about staying up all nite and drinking but hey thats cool ,we paid the price in Kelowna that yr ( we should have won ) .  

Again I'm not trashing the team as I have no reason to ..... we just have have/had different goals .That team has alot of potential but it's held back by those who have different views and I guess ..........lives ,lol. You guys have the potential to win Rec A ( which is now comp C )again but you need better commitment from the crew. I see the e-mails going back and forth saying I can't make this and I can't make that ,thats hurts a team like yours from getting better ..........geez ,you guys only train once a week(how hard is that to make ) .I know the motto of the team was and is to have fun at all costs .

 This is forum is about the state of dragonboat and how to make it better like it is out east . I'm just showing some of the attitudes and outlooks that prevent teams from getting better and making it more competitive .

My impression from this train of emails was that you were discussing the level of  'competitiveness' in Vancouver vs East.  Some  were concerned about not having enough 'serious' teams in Vancouver and that the spirit of competition may be fading....  

You used your first team as a comparison so you opened the door as far as I'm concerned.

On the vein of keeping things focused on 'competition'...

Somewhere in this train I saw some comments to the effect that there may be too many 'fun' teams on the water in Vancouer in general compared to East..  

Everyone has to start somewhere.  Most people wouldn't qualify to make it on a 'competitive' team their first (or second) time out so they need a place to start.  If there were only 'competitive' level teams, the interest in the sport would probably dwindle.

 If you want to raise the level of competition in Vancouver, and you want to see more competitive/serious teams in Vancouver, and you want to kick but back east - then  Start another team, bring them back east and show them how it's done..  

  Be careful not to discourage others.   You need to have some 'fun' teams in order to introduce new blood into the sport.  This is their learning ground.  

Consider the time we spent with you (for example)  as our contribution to the competitive teams.  You were able to get your paddle wet and the time you spent with the team helped make you a better paddler for the competitive team.

I think you should re-read your email.  Your 'thoughts' really were trashing the team - mostly the Captain.  I think you owe him an apology (if he even reads this forum..)

vj

V , I'm NOT(read NOT) trashing the team or the captain just repeating what was always the case (sorry if it reads the wrong way).The captain wants it to be fun and not taken too serious and it wasn't about winning it was about having fun (does he not always say that ?) .How's that trashing the capt or the team ? You know I could go deep here but I'm not and I'm going to leave this alone .

 You guys have a great team ,like I said, w/ great potential but  lack the commitment and desire to do what your capable of . Prove me wrong this yr .................step up and make it to Comp C again ........you have the potential you just need the commitment and desire . This is not trashing you ,I would love to see you guys go all the way again and be on the podium in Alcan

 I will always thk the team for accepting me and giving me a start , I had fun but like I said I'm very competitve and take racing very very serious ,as you know (thats what annoyed you remember) . I have found my place now and am part of a great team who truely has that desire ,focus and makes the commitment to be the best we can every time .
 
 Anyway good luck in Alcan and all your races this yr ......paddle hard I know you guys have it .............just use it and focus and you will succeed

This is a very interesting post, especially for me, a young newbie of the sport and someone who's interested in its development.

About the competitive level of the dragon boat sports scene, I'd like to offer a different take on why we're not as competitive as in the east.

The reason: culture. Or rather, takes on how life should be lived and enjoyed. It comes down to this question: Is it the journey or the destination? Or a bit of both?

Out east, especially in Toronto, it's about competition, bottom line and outcomes. Toronto is like New York: the financial capital of Canada, where most of the major companies are located. Over there, life is fast paced, rushed, and stressful (not to say it's not like that in Vancouver or anywhere else, but definitely more so in TO).

Out here, we're more laid back. We enjoy skiing, the beach, the water and the mountains. We got more nature and because of that, we're more laid back, and thus, not as competitive as the East.

As a newbie paddler, the reason why I joined Dragonboat is because it's fun, promotes an active lifestyle, and advances social and community interactions. The competition is important, because without it, you sink to mediocrity. However, it's definitely not the top reason why I paddle. I'd say it's maybe 4th or 5th on my priority level.

Perhaps this will change in the future, but for now, the journey has been really good, and even if my team places 5th place at Alcan, it wouldn't matter to me. It comes back to that question: is it the journey or the destination?

I've been in situations where it's all about outcomes, all about destination. I find these situations aren't satisfying. It's akin to travelling: you can go on a tour bus and see all the great landmarks in a city, but the real memories aren't taking a snapshot of you infront of the Eiffel Tower or what have you. Instead, what you'll remember are the people, their personalities, the laughs and moments you shared, and how they made you feel.

For me, this summer's been about the journey, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

The question is, what can WE do more to ensure there are more locally elite teams competing at the national level? Whether or not the teams are watered down is subject to many opinions but we what do we define as an appropriate number of “comp A” teams? 8? 16? 32? What standards do we use to compare them with Canada East teams/Asian Teams? How will we gauge what is a successful number of teams?

Does DB Vancouver have the infrastructure/resources to “raise” the bar for the local teams? This all begins with us as a community. I agree with Tiger that it all starts with the 20 yr olds; perhaps even younger potential paddlers. That’s not to say we can’t have elite 40-50 something yr old Paddlers but without a large pool of novice and rec paddlers to develop into Comp A caliber athletes; you will statistically have fewer Comp A caliber Teams.

I’ll use the example of Canada’s only World cup of soccer entrant (1986 Team). Why was this nation able to field a qualifier and none since? So many requirements are necessary. There were many Canadians playing soccer not only at the 12 and under level; but there were leagues to develop the 18 and under talent. More importantly, there was an adult league (NASL) to continue the development of the best of the best. They competed with the best on a regular basis. To be the best, u have to beat the best and be able to learn from the best. Jung_Du and Lethal Weapon bring up great points about how WE as a DB community can get to that level locally.  There needs to be more infrastructure; more salaried coaches/managers/organizers; standardized rules and regulations and support from the local community. Why do we no longer have a Canadian Soccer team at the world cup qualifier entrant in 20yrs? We no longer have an equivalent league comparable to the NASL. Why do we have a national Hockey team that competes for the Gold medal at every world class event? We have infrastructure and leagues that develop the adult talent to that world class caliber. How many of us wanted to be # 99 Wayne Gretzky? Such a large talent pool of kids got so excited about hockey and stayed in hockey to develop into the Sidney Crosby and Tyson Nash of today. WE as a DB community must do the same here. Contrary to Paddleboy; the need to have a large field of rec teams to draw from and develop talent to the comp A level is a essential to fulfil whatever the requirement Chaos considers as the acceptable number of TRUE elite teams. How much training/talent/team development does an athlete need to get on the FRCC men’s team? You cannot just force a team of 24 paddlers to go to the gym 3 X/week or train on the water 4 X/per week to get to the Comp A level.

It’s not as simple as Paddleboy thinks. You also need the team to have chemistry and be professional about the needs of the team over the needs of the individual. I was on the team that won Alcan 2003 Rec A gold with Paddleboy. Paddleboy was not sat out cos he was annoying( even though he is  :wink: ); Paddleboy was sat out cos the Coach decided the roster for that particular race was the best possible combination for the team to win that race. As with any team sport, you win as a team and you lose as individuals. Paddleboy also neglects to post that we were not even ranked to be in rec A that yr. We clawed and battled our way from being Rec C the year before to get up to the Rec A finals over a two yr period. Our Captain and managers went out and recruited a world caliber coach. We competed against and learned from best of the rec div teams even though we practiced once a week. We had that spirit to be the best once we figured out we could beat other teams in the rec div that practiced more than us on and off the water. Our Finish call was “ HOW BAD DO U WANT IT!!!” The core of the team bonded to the point where we WOULD give our lives for each other. Would anyone on Paddleboy’s current team honestly say they would do the same for Paddleboy?

We shared the excitement of DB with anyone who would listen and tried to recruit them. I am VERY proud to say that we have developed paddlers that have gone on to Comp A teams. Once the elitist mentality comes in to the DB community; that is a step backwards for this TEAM sport that we all love.

“Build it and they will come”. If we make DB THE team sport to be in for the lower mainland and WE establish the infrastructure to support these teams; then our Comp A teams can take on anyone anywhere. If you feel that teams on the west are too laid back, BE the inspiration that goes out and motivate the community to recruit the best local talent and share your enthusiasm. Find the best coaches/managers and pay them well. Without the many Volunteers/organizers' dedication at Dragon Zone and at the festivals, none of the events would be worth entering. Go after the corporate dollars to increase the resources for DB. If we want it bad enough, we’ll get it.

BMD

ok, back to gossiping about stealth seals and Paddleboy's hardcore partying at celebrites  :wink:

 To make the Fcrcc team is not as hard as you make it ........trust me ,the first thing you have to have is belief in yourself .Not all of them are in the gym



 this really shows how much you know about comp teams ......................NOT all comp team paddlers train in the gym and nor do they train 4 train times a week on the water .......they just have more desire to succeed






 Lol........thats sooooo funny..........did I really hit a nerve w/ you guys or what ,lol .That wasn't the reason ...........geeez .You guys always said out loud I was way too competitive .Hey all I wanted was the team to step up ,I can't remember how many times I bit my lip when it was said.In fact I was the only one on the boat that trained in the gym hard 4 times a week to better myself .............were you doing that ? Answer -Noooooooooo . I did it because I wanted to win and play with the big boys .



Answer- yes and even more so , comp teams are very very close as we spend alot of time together



 sorry never been there , but my girlfriend says it's a cool place for some


  Just continue doing what your doing ,there is nothing that I said that I lied about so I'm not sure why some of you are getting a little upset . I repeat ............. NOTHING I SAID WAS NOT TRUE and you know it so stop being so defensive .  :roll: We'll see you at Alcan  :wink: ...................good luck !!!

Paddleboy, once again you need to focus on the thread and not on yourself. you may have the desire and the free time to train and physically "better" yourself but the thread is on TEAMS and CREWS. You did also need to understand that the TEAM is bigger than you or any individual. Your Former team has done what it needs to take to better themselves and we wanted to make sure that those facts are pointed out. We have gone out and recruited paddlers so that the DB community as a whole can get better over time yet all you seem to want to talk about is yourself.  8)   Dude, this is a forum and your side of the story may be all about u... all I'm trying to do is to give the rest of the forum the other side of the story as well as the rest of the facts. Take your passion and use it to build DB in the lower mainland. We've been doing our part. We have the passion and desire and will do what we can. Please don't speak for us as you are NOT in the decision making process for our team. Please don't ASSume we lack any competitive spirit as we give our all in every race that we are in.

DB is a team sport and we will "dial in" when it's appropriate and we will "have fun" as time permits. We're sorry you were not able to gel with our team and we're glad you have found a team that has the ability to paddle your EGO around the creek. It's ok that you didn't want to be part of a process to help develop our team and new paddlers but it's simply tactless to portray developing teams in a negative light just because they have not currently reach the Comp A level. It's always easier to say that this team doesn't do this or won't do that to win. Then take a leadership role and be the positive drive behind the Team. You want the team to go with you? then you better damn well make sure you can inspire/excite the team.

Yes, it' always easier to develop yourself and make it on to an existing Comp A team.  We prefer to Develop Comp A paddlers so that more Comp A teams can exist. That's one of our team goals and if you spent any time listening to us instead of posing around us then perhaps your time with us wouldn't have been so painful.  :cry:  

We're sorry if we could not convey to you the spirit of our team and we will endeaveour to provide all our Paddlers on our team the true essence of DB  so there will never be another Paddleboy horror story again!!

BMD

where's that number for Colby's shrink again?

...

*ADMIN NOTE*
I have removed this post as it did not follow Forum Rules.
- No flaming of other members to incite or perpetuate a conflict or argument. ANY personal attacks or name calling will get you banned.
- Keep personal conversations on ICQ, AIM, email, or the forum software's Private Message (PM) feature. The forum is not for back-and-forth chats. Ask yourself these questions:
-- Does the text of my reply consist of two or fewer sentances?
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I am seriously growing tired of this... Congratulations fun@allcosts on your first and LAST post on DBW

OK.. this is getting ridiculous...
As much as people love seeing off-topic issues brought up and dirty laundry being aired, how does this kind of banter between paddleboy, Beat My Drum and Waterbunny help the state of dragon boat?  This topic should be kept between you guys as it seems that you guys need to sit down and talk it out like adults or however you wish to resolve it.
This thread is to discuss the state of the "sport" of dragon boat in the Lower Mainland and not about how someone left a Rec team to a Comp team. To all parties involved... please refrain from further commenting of your own issues in this thread. If you really wish to air your dirty laundry, start your own thread. If you want to comment on your thoughts on "Jumping Ship" add to this old thread (http://www.dragonboatwest.net/viewtopic.php?t=724&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15). I have more important things to do than splitting threads to remain on topic.

paddleboy, Beat My Drum, Waterbunny and any others that wish to continue their "discussion", heed my words for posting privileges may be revoked

Just wanted to see what other people's thoughts are on what's needed to develop more competitive local crews on the creek that don't come out of FCRCC or have their own equipment e.g. Pacific Reach.

Don't have anything against those two models, but what options do non-FCRCC clubs have to compete at that level; and what suggestions do people have to develop those resources?

I believe both dragon zone and FCRCC supply tandem boats which are a great learning tool.  You'll improve your strength and technique in these small boats.  Pogue sports also offers OC training as does Jericoh.

hey secret weapon

That's the point I'm trying to make ....

I already paddle OC1 out of FCRCC during during the fall and winter. My dragonboat club is based out of DZ, and we already use the marathons there for training and time trials.

From what I perceive, DZ was created to provide an option to FCRCC for local teams to practice out off. As part of that option doesn't it make sense to provide resources to paddlers to better themselves? Don't get me wrong .. I totally appreciate the use of the marathons at DZ; but I find that having only two marathons limiting i.e. you have to schedule usage + also have a paddling partner available to go with you. At FCRCC, with the solos you can pretty much train on your own schedule as long as you don't use them while another program is running. I'm fortunate that  I can afford membership in both places, but that's not the case with everybody.

I'm thinking more of how to develop a larger competitive base of paddlers in the creek as an alternative to the FCRCC programs. FCRCC has developed really good paddlers with their programs, but that base is small compared to say out East esp. with all their flatwater programs to choose from.

Not trying to point out flaws, but more curious as to what people think is necessary to raise the bar on the sport locally.

get more people in the sport, joining these clubs so they in turn can justify increasing said resources.

The paddling scene back east is probably three times as big as it is out here, maybe more.

The best way to increase the resources and competiveness on the creek is to have a kick ass junior / or high school teams. I can't believe that none of you saw the loalam eagles do so well out there . Coached by none other than Hugh Fischer these guys have stuck together and trained and now will be the next competive group out there - they are NOT from the Creek - they are from Pemberton!    
   When I look around at Alcan the average age is way in the 30's and on - we need some young talent out there. it not about resources of stuff like more boats  - it's better coaching and a younger crowd.

I honestly can't fathom why you would think that. Everyone I know in dragonboating ( >100 people) knows the above. They are so watched and such common knowledge that it's almost an insult that you claim we don't notice them. On top of that you incorrectly spelt their team name.

I agree.  Sounds like Melanie is looking for an excuse to drop Fischer's name, but his name does not need to be.  Everyone seems to know of him and the kickass job he does.

The good doctor also strikes me as a guy who let's the results speak for themselves.

question:  what are the costs to belong to FC and DZ?  and do they have a lot of club equipment available so that you can pretty much head out anytime you want?

access to equipment is always a big obstacle to getting people to train and not depend on having a team practice.  my team has started buying canoes on our own to overcome this obstacle.  all the "dedicated" paddlers pretty much share equipment and push each other to get out on the water during other times than the  team practices.

here in the SF area there aren't many major paddling centers (there are in los angeles).  the closest we have are outrigger paddling clubs that have a multitude of equipment.  there are more and more dragon boaters that are joining both their db team as well as an outrigger team to get the water time they desire.

FCRCC offers two Membership Types, Basic (covers use of a dragon boat at scheduled practice slots) and Regular (covers use of a dragon boat at scheduled practice slots, use of marathon canoes and older OC-1s, use of a coach boat (requires advance booking), and rebates for any full use FCRCC members on the roster by a set date in March)
Fees go by the number of Practices/Week, Basic Membership or Regular Membership. For the standard 2 practices a week with Regular Membership, teams are looking at about $2900 CDN.

This may sound like alot but there are Potential Fee Reductions like:
• Senior and junior teams (all paddlers) – 50% of fees for weekday practice slots before 5:30 PM.
• Teams that put the FCRCC logo on their race jerseys get a $100 rebate.
• Sign up for Friday evening or Saturday afternoon practice slots and save $400 (maximum $400 per team).
• Refer a new team to FCRCC and receive a $300 rebate when they pay their registration fees for 2005, and $150 in subsequent years (maximum three).
• Receive a rebate for each Full FCRCC member on your roster. Not to exceed 20 paddlers or total team fees paid.
• If you have 20 Full FCRCC members on your roster, you qualify for two Full Registration practice slots/week at no charge (but no rebates).
• Apply for dock duty.

FCRCC also offers services such as...
• FCCC – change rooms and showers; fitness center ($3 drop-in, $26 for 10)
• Erg (OC shed)
• OC Orientations
• FCRCC Womens and FCRCC Mens teams

DragonZone on the other hand runs about $1979.50 CDN after taxes for the full year for two practices a week for an adult team with discounts for less practices and juniors.

Dragon Zone offers the use of a coach boat for teams that
regularly practice once or more a week. They also have two marathon canoes for small boat practices and time controls. These were easy to get into last season but this season these seem to be booked more often than ever. They also managed to pick up an ERG this year.

To answer Ken's question... can a member just go to the club and jump in a boat anytime they want? In a dragonboat, the answer would be no. In small boats it's really dependant on what's going on at that time.

The point I am making is that resourses don't make the padlder !  lets once again look at Pemberton   They started with nothing - voyageur canoes. The Coach ,,,yes Hugh fischer... took his juniors to the worlds - they won- took them to Nationals ,then took them to the world Outrigger  sprint championships in Hilo hawaii - over 60 kids went !!!  . These kids have raced  abroad more than most dragonboaters.  

 as a club they don't really have two Loonies  to rub together !  I know I donated 15 paddles for use in Hilo.

  They didn't have showers, a fleet of oc-1's,  paddle Ergs  latest design of Dragon baot or a community of paddlers to draw from - they have a really good coach with a huge vision. The same holds true with the False Creek Woman - a really good coach with a huge vision !

Don't we need better coaches? is that not a resourse ?

I do not think we "need" better coaches, though it would be great if we did, or our existing coaches improved.
I am not entirely sure why you keep refering to Fischer, but I will say that I will take an olympic calibre coach over the latest greatest equipment any time. But what are you going to do? Force all Olympic paddlers to become dragon boat coaches?

I'd like to know your definition of a "better Coach"
Granted DB does not have the infrastucture of Canoe BC or other recognized organizations with certified coaches and different levels BUT even though some people have taken the DBC (Dragon Boat Canada) technical training there is no real course for experience that the "uncertified" coaches can offer. I think it is great DBC is moving in the right direction but saying we need better coaches is not the issue. I feel we could improve more if we pooled and shared the knowledge that is available and out there from the more experienced (not certified) coaches. I applaud Water's Edge for offering those excellent course and seminars which are not only directed at coahes but paddlers as well.  The knowledge base available at water's edge for DB is vast and draws not just from DB but OC and and other small boat skill sets as well which is just what the doctor ordered!
I personally have learned more about paddling from a non DB coach than any other coach on the basics but also have the privilige to learn race strategy and specific DB skillsets from an excellent DB coach as well.
The creek has some awesome coaches and ,true, resources are not plentiful for the serious DBer, I am sure options are on the way.....(and yes Guido, you are a "great coach too!")

Another reason I am not entirely sold on the "need better coaches" claim is because there are other problems.
#1. IMHO is commitment. Particularly amongst paddlers. How often has a team gone off course because their steersman was not able to control the boat and how often was that a result of the steersman not having enough experience on a fully crewed (powered) boat?
I, myself am a prime example of bad committment, i will admit to you all that i only made 4 practices this season.  :oops:

Melanie's on the right track regarding infrastructure and coaching.  "Dragon Boat BC" is not organized.  Dragon Boat racing is not a recognized sport by Sport BC.  Most people who call themselves dragon boat coaches have no idea what NCCP stands for and are not members of the Coaching Association of BC, nevermind a dragon boat coaching association of BC.

Look at canoeing and rowing - both recieve money from Sport BC, and Federal sport bodies.  Dragon Boating is considered a "recreational activity" in the same manner as "recreational skiing,"  or beer-league hockey.  Just look at how many people rate "beer gardens" as important to their paddling enjoyment.

I talked with Dr. Eric Broom, a few years ago about the state of dragon boating as an organized sport.  (No... I am not looking for an excuse to drop his name....) Dr. Broom is the grandfather of NCCP training in BC, as well as professor emeritus of UBC Human Kinetics, as well as a sport consultant to the BC Provincial Government.  He stated that all dragon boating needs is a few people with their Level 3 NCCP, to demonstrate to Sport BC that we have high quality coaches, register with Coaching Association of BC, then we can start to apply for funding.

If dragon boat racing becomes a "recognized sport" then maybe the top junior paddlers will move to dragon boating... right now they are in sprint kayak and sprint canoe race programs - NOT dragon boating.  Both Hugh Fisher and Andrea Dillon have flat water canoe and kayak backgrounds.  So does Kamini Jain and Meaghan McDonough of the FC Women, so does dragon boat legend Larry Cain and the latest Canadian paddling sensation - Gold medalist Adam Van Koeverden.... gee is there a pattern here?  Adam paddles kayak for serious competition - then goes off dragon boating to the Worlds for fun!

True enough but that does not take away from their experience and knowledge they have to share. DBC technical level I requries NCCP A as  a requirement for certification. DBC is moving in the rigth direction to make DB a recognized sport. Is the Coach of your team, Gung Haggis, NCCP trained or DBC certified?

Lethal Weapon wrote:



Hello LW

Thank you for asking...
Both Coach Bob Brinson and myself were certified by Alan Carlsson for DB technical.  We both supported him when he first started offering technical courses.  We also were both presenters at the first Dragon Boat Coaching Conference organized by Carlsson.  I have also taken NCCP Level 3 theory and Technical for Volleyball + courses in athletics and sport psychology at SFU.  

Lethal Weapon wrote: re: NCCP


True - but is it the "right and correct" knowledge and experience they are sharing?  There are many experienced paddlers out there who are asked to "coach" a team, and they simply pass on the information that they learned from whichever teams they were on.  This the traditional "way of coaching," rampant in every sport.  But every organized sport now recommends that coaches take both technical and theory NCCP courses.  Level 3 is required to coach at the provincial level.  Jay Triano, Canadian basketball Hall of Famer, had to take NCCP theory level 4 in order to coach at the National Level.

There are stories about the old FC teams who would do strange little paddling motions, when they knew people were watching them - just to see if the other teams would copy them, and of course they did - without understanding why.  All before the days of conferences, internet and web forums.  

There are times when I was on the ADBF race committee and we would share "HORROR stories" about what we saw happening on the creek.  Everybody still does this in their own networks...

The coaching mentorship program is on the right track.  We do need to pass and share information.  Paddling and Coaching styles are not static, they evolve as do paddlers.  There are styles for beginners and styles for experienced paddlers.  There are specific techniques for sprint racing, and long distance, for small and large paddlers, for young and old paddlers.  

In an ideal world, we would all have degrees in Human Kinetics, NCCP training, and do coaching workshops with Andrea Dillon, Kamini Jain, Barry Lam, Alan Carlsson and Hugh Fisher.  But in the meantime... we take the courses, ask to go out with other coaches, share our information, and know that the Vancouver dragon boat community is evolving slowly but surely.

Thanks
i am all for the certification of DB as Recognized sport.


Don't forget the excellent workshops offered by Water's Edge as well!

I would include a workshop with Jackie Webber and Pat Barker on my "wish list" as well...  Jackie's done some great work since arriving on the Vancouver dragon boat scene, and Pat's 1996 book "Dragon Boats: A Celebration" has just been republished in Canada. http://members.aol.com/Canada616/pat_book.htm

I talked with Jackie Webber at Dragon Zone today.  She informed me that "Water's Edge" is working very closely with supporting Alan Carlsson's Dragon Boat technical course for recogition by Dragon Boat Canada.  This will be one step closer to integration for NCCP recognition.  At about the same time Alan was developing his technical course, somebody in Ottawa was doing the same thing. Typical East vs West isolated streams of development.  It used to be that the only way you could get technical information about paddling was to take the NCCP Flat Water paddling course.

There is a lot that takes place informally as well as formally for "the state of dragon boating" in Vancouver and BC.  But we need to develop an official Vancouver or BC organization that can lobby Vancouver interests. An "elected" Dragon Boat Canada BC/Vancouver chapter has yet to make a more public presence.

Vancouver started off with RECREATIONAL dragon boat paddling, as a means to develop more multiculturalism in our city.  But in recent years as both interest in IDBF and World Club Crew Championships emerged, clubs are finally waking up to the IDBF rules and regulations for country representation - thus the SPORT stream has really developed.  Next will follow NCCP recognition then hopefully recognition by the provincial and federal sporting organizations.  In the meantime, a real strong RECREATIONAL component must be developed to serve as the entry point for the SPORT development side.

We are currently witnessing a boom in Lower Mainland RECREATIONAL dragon boat races.
This year we witness FOUR new races and regattas:
White Rock regatta,
Abreast in a Boat 10 Year Anniversary,
Sea Vancouver regatta,
Fraser Valley Dragon Boat Race at Harrison Lake
+ a FIFTH event in Vernon BC!

In 2003, I helped set up the Vancouver International Taiwanese Dragon Boat Race.  This is a race that has two main RECREATIONAL objectives: 1) Offer dragon boaters a different taste of "classical" dragon boat races with "flag grabbing" and 2) Introduce Taiwanese culture to the larger Vancouver population.

Thanks
ITs looking like DBC is moving in the right direction. My limited experience in coaching DB has so far been very interesting. I have been watching a lot of the coaches on the water and I see a lot of areas that the NCCP course training would be helpful for them. Its not a miracle course by any means but I have coached VB as well for 20 years and never really had any formal training or certification but taking the NCCP level A and B opened my eyes to better methods to "get the message" across if I may say so. It does make a huge difference to be coached by a certifed higher level NCCP coach in any discipline as they have the background and knowledge of their sport PLUS the methodologies to maximize your training. Alan Carlsson for example is a NCCP Certifed Flatwater coach but his understanding of the technique used to move a boat and how it moves can cross different water sport disciplines (we can learn a lot about paddling from our OC and Flattie friends!) One day I hope to gain a better understanding as well so I can pass it to the sport of DB. Until then, keep learning and taking courses!