Dragon Boat West

July 23
Regular deadline: July 8th
www.richmonddragonboat.com

The race grid is now posted:

http://f2000p.org/programs_events/richmond_festival.php?id=4&press=1&draw_column=3:3:2

That seems odd. What happens to the crew that finishes 4th in the first race? Where do they go to race again? Or am I reading that wrong. Afterall I am getting older!  :roll:

you are getting old.  :lol:

They go to race 13....

Team attending Richmond
Xtreme Reach
Pirates
ROLI Canada Open
ssSteam Heat
Fresh Off The Dragonboat (FODB)
Save on Foods Dragonslayers
St'Keya
Paddlers of the Fifth Moon
Scotiabank Dragons
Just Dragon Along
Apalala
Alpha Dragons
The Eh Team
RGL United
TD Lightning
Lotus Sports Club Mixed
Hydro Power Dragons
Strathcona Youth Dragons
Rogers Team Vortex
Canadian Construction Women
Richmond Centre Dragoneers
SFU Dragon Bytes
TEAM MOMENTUM
CAC Banana Boat
Abreast In a Boat
Agua Gaia
Blazing Paddles
Catch-22
Chilliwack Thunder Strokers
Dragon Eyes
Fan Tan Alley Cats of GRPC
Fraser Dragons
Island Breastrokers Full of Spirit
Shaggin’ an Elephant
Ship of Fools
Sudden Impact DB Team
The Lil' Boat That Could

It's great to see so many out of town teams going to this festival. Anyone want to try their luck and predict placements? Judging on how the race grid has been set up with what looks like the expected winners in Lane 2... it looks like the organizers are expecting the final to look like...

Roli Canada Open
Just Dragon Along
Xtreme Reach
Lotus Sports Club

Then again, does anyone else find that their seeding is somewhat suspect? They have Alpha and Sudden Impact racing each other in the first round. Didn't those two teams come 2nd and 3rd overall in last week's races in Harrison?

"The race distance will be approximately 450 meters because you will be paddling into a current." Ahhh... sounds like fun

well, don't really know who will win, your list seems not too bad....my team, St'Keya, just plans on living through it.

I think I want to go to the Richmond festival..............

is xtreme reach in any relation with pacific reach?

u guys should watch out for "Lil' boat that could".
their steers will ram u because he can't concerntrate when hot chicks are around.

Isn't Voon their steers man?

No relation,  we are from the other side of the strait in Victoria, based out of the Gorge Rowing and Paddling Centre (GRPC), coached by James Hill, formerly of the Gorging Dragons.

ooops sorry :D

Looks like GPRC United has entered the race to make things interesting...

From discussion with other paddlers that wish to remain nameless, it'll probably be Xtreme Reach, Roli Open (if they beat fodb), GRPC United, and TD in the final.

No little boat?  Don't they have some relation to that Sea Vancouver lemon squeezy team?

I definately tip LB to get into the top final.

nope.

I was just looking over the race grid again.... anyone care to explain why they are running 25mins heat for the finals in the afternoon?   I don't think the comp teams appreciate racing at ~12pm in the Semi's and waiting till 5pm for their final race.

in order to ensure the utmost fairness in each heat, they probably plan to pull all the boats out of the water after each heat to clean, polish, dry, and wax them before the next heat goes..

...for this to happen, they will need an extra few mins in between heats to prepare the boats....

 :P  :P

no...I like my theory better... :P

yours is too logical...so logical that it doesn't make sense... :P

The 2005 Richmond Dragon Boat Festival has come and gone.  Unfortunately, this year’s festival made it apparent that there are issues relating to the organization and calibre of officiating.

These issues included late revisions to the race grid due to missing teams who apparently had registered for the festival in advance but were inadvertently left out.

Another concern was the lack of video or camera equipment to record finish line results (unlike Alcan).  Instead, three sets of human eyes were used, standing side by side by side to determine placing in a race.  Apparently, the finish lines officials are very experienced and can tell which boat is ahead even if there is only less than .2 seconds difference between finish times (this is paraphrasing their own words).  This is quite remarkable, considering they are all looking at the finish line from a different angle but all agree on the same result.

The finish line officials were also posting results without any double checking or verification.  For instance, in one race, the third place team was put down as first place, while first and second got push to second and third respectively.

The end result is that the way the event was run does not lend confidence to the officiating system.

Race officials must be accountable to paddlers for the races they officiate.   Inaccuracies such as those outlined above undermine the integrity of the officiating, races and ultimately, the legitimacy of a festival.  For smaller festivals like Richmond to continue to attract competitive teams, it is important that the officiating mechanism is fair and just.

If anyone is interested in signing a petition to strongly recommend the use of video or camera equipment for finish line results for future festivals, PM me.

Blue Final Unofficial Results:

1. xTreme Reach (Victoria)
2. ssSteam Heat (Victoria)
3. ROLI Canada Open
4. Lil' Boat That Could

same with the start line.... I can sympathize a bit because mother nature, airplanes and time are working against them.   But still, it just seems way too disorganized.

I noticed a huge log on the course for one race but safety boats towed it away right after - so good for them.

As to the wrist bands ... I know of one instance where a team was short one paddler for their final and the race director granted permission for them to pick up a loaner. What that tells me is that the organizers intended it to be a fun, less competitive festival.  But in fairness I guess not all participants knew that going into it.

The marshalling was a bit over-zealous, and once the sun came out that was a drag. But getting and keeping the festival ahead of schedule was great. (There's always the danger of a team being caught off guard, but getting the whole thing wrapped up early and into the beer garden was a positive.)

As soon as you demand sophisticated timing/video systems on the finish line, expect registration fees to go up. Someone from every team really needs to get to the timing tent and find out exactly where the finish line is. Yesterday the discrepancy between the buoy position and the true finish line was significant, which leads to observers from shore perceiving poor finish calls that probably aren't that bad.

A couple of positive comments: plenty of port-a-potties! yay! never a line-up. and plenty of decent beer at good prices! yay! never a line-up for that either. Congratulations to all participants; hope everyone had as much fun as I did.

With all due respect, I disagree with your suggestion that registration fees have to go up in order to have timing or video equipment at the finish line.  How expensive are video camcorders and digital cameras nowadays?

The festival charged each team $600.  That's $23,400.00.  They are charging $1,229.43 to $1,336.43 for the Victoria festival.  If they have at least 80 teams, that's over $98,000.00.  Yet they don't employ any finish line recording device.

Most of us have raced enough to know that the buoys do not mark the finish lines (see Alcan finish line photos).  Even if teams do their part to find out where the finish line is, we should not be responsible for figuring out race results.  Participating teams should not have to assign someone at the finish line to take photos or record races.  The point is that there is no way for us to verify the supposed "official results" posted by the finish line officials.  There is no accountability.

Poor accuracy would be an understatement.   They had 3 monkeys sitting in the tent side by side hitting their stop watch with their toes with blind folds on!!  On top of that, they had admin issues where they couldn't even properly put the proper teams that won the races on a piece of paper!!?!?!  

wooHOO... Great officiating I must say!!

Hey look! Little boat in the finals!  Take that!

Anyone know how the Save-on Dragonslayers did-Richmond is slow at printing the race results

Richmond's a nice place.  Race starts were laughable.  :lol: Always fun racing against the current though. The area wasn't half bad. Richmond's a nice place.  :roll:

I think they were a close second in Blue C, which places them at 10th overall out of 39 teams.

Oops, they were third.

(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b361/dbstar/2005%20Richmond/2005RichmondFinal.jpg)

Xtreme Reach - Lane 4, ssSteam Heat - Lane 3, Roli Canada - Lane 2, Lil Boat - Lane 1

I'm wondering which race the officials were watching...  On top of that, the time difference between 1st and 4th place team was > 2 seconds apart.  hmmm... reaction time on their stop watches is a bit slow if you tell me.

Cool picture. Looks like it was taken about 50 m short of the finish line so it's a little misleading to say the least, but cool picture.

What exactly is this photo supposed to tell us?  The finish line was in line with the wooden posts shown in the top left of the photo.  Trace that line across the photo, and suddenly the officials' judgement looks pretty good.

Enough with the sour grapes all ready.  Suck it up.  Train harder for next time.

merc

My team managed to eke out second in every race we went into, I think...once by about 0.4 sec, one a little more convincing, and the last to Alpha Dragons by 0.2....all in all, we had a great week-end.   Did we protest or complain?  No....we figured our start sucked and our course was bad, and we had no great finish....Alpha was very good, as were the other teams we lost to...such is racing.

Being from Victoria, it seems to me that starts, almost by definition, at Richmond were weird due to tide and current -- just barely get set, if you were waiting for such, then go.....so?  Such is the race.  We got surprised a couple of times...whose fault is that?  I think - ours.

Overall, I think Richmond was fun, we had a great time!  I guess many of the really "good" teams don't go there because it has such transient conditions.....yet those conditions make it fun.  The teams in the final deserved to be there...all were awesome.

I would like to thank the Richmond organizers for a really fun, albeit long, day....we had a blast!  

I guess my major comment is  -- next year, when we come, can we reserve a site a little closer to the docks?  I had to shower several times to get my feet clean from the dust   :lol:  Alternatively, get the path paved.

It was fun.... after Nanaimo, a good prelim for the VI and Victoria festivals...rematches are free  :lol:

The morning races were pretty cool to watch. Many boats were moving at a crawl because of the current despite everyone paddling furiously.
It was an enjoyable day in a pleasant place. The volunteers were friendly and were (in my opinion) the nicest group of dock and race marshalls I've seen all season, so I'm not going to complain... unlike certain other races :D  

Perhaps it wasn't up to the calibre of some of the more professional teams, but the event felt like a grassroots event done up to the best of their ability and on a tight budget.

Don't worry if your highly ranked team didn't do as well as you think it should have. We all still respect you.

merc: maybe you can educate the rest of us who view that picture a little differently than you.   There are a couple of programs easily accesible to the average person which would allow you to "draw" the finish line onto that picture.  

Each boat in that picture depicts that each boat was still fighting to the end, or at the very least paddling to some measure of capacity.   None of those boats are drifting, nor are they merely "cruising".   What does that tell me?   That the finish line is still to be crossed, and from what ever perspective (be it the wooden post, buoys, tent) you choose to make the finish line, there is no doubt that for the last "50 meters" (as indicated by paddleho), Little Boat was in the lead.  

As for being sour grapes that should train harder, I think that maybe you should take some time to educate yourself a little harder when making such an ignorant remark.   This isn't an issue of lack of training, it's an issue of POOR OFFICIATING.   Those guys/gals on that boat (and I'm only going to refer to Little Boat, because its their discrepency) have their own training regime that they stick to; some are more intense than others, some a little less intense.   It was training, nonetheless, enough to get them to where they were, and from that picture, it seems that they've trained hard enough.

Besides, I'd rather have sour grapes over bull**** that lingers and continues to stink.

So from shore some of the results were very questionable.  I watched many of the races and I find it hard to believe some of the results.  The picture posted was one of them.

So if I line up the picture with the wooden posts. I would have to say that lane 1 is already across the "imaginery" finish line.  So to help Merc out I decided to try and figure out where the finish line is if the "official" standings are true.  I watched some of the starts so to judge the finish line you have to know how they started, merc did you do that.

If you look at all of the racers, they are all still paddling hard so I am gathering they have not passed or just have passed the finish line so if that is the case, clearly somebody screwed this one up (but it is not the only race screwed up).

I am not sure but I think the finish line must have been at the half way mark, just my guess?

Now I am not sure how to post my picture with the "finish line(s)" here so if someone can assist I will post with some finish lines and then we can debate where it really is.

There were good points about the festival:

1.  The weather was good (just imagine if it ever rains on this festival, brrrrr).  
2.  The dock crew were good, pleasant, not arrogant.

The bad points:

1.  Not enough boats to run 2 sets of races.  Similar to other years, it did run ahead but that is because they left 25 minutes between races.  25 minutes I could drive all the way to White Rock.  It did guarantee they would end early though.
2.  Finish line was totally unreliable.  I saw races being announced, posted, advancements done and then changed because they caught themselves.  How much confidence can a team(s) have in the process when they can't get things like "sorting" correct (that was an excuse I heard for wrong placements, a monkey can sort 3 times better).
3.  The announcer is useless, most unexciting, "put you to sleep" announcer that you could find.  Hopefully the announcer is volunteering their time cause if they are paid, the festival should put a stop payment on the cheque and refund that money back to the teams.

If you want competitive, top rec teams then you have to have something more than three visually impaired people getting the times.  The last time I was at a festival without video replay capabilities was years ago (except for Richmond).  Even Harrison last week had video and their fees were pretty much the same as Richmond (and it was their first year).

I heard people say after their races; "Better hang around cause there will be a protest of those results" or the classic "Just shut up at least we get a medal".  Even the teams knew they were wrong.  Pretty mickey mouse.  The finish line people should issue an apology to all the teams for the disservice they did.  I would think there will be some teams (down this year already) that will not comeback.  Any team that asks me about Richmond I will say "AVOID RICHMOND as it is a very substandard festival and for the money go out and have a few drinks instead, way less frustrating and a lot more rewarding for team bonding".

UBC is putting a rowing center there, you have to wonder if the same finish line will be used for rowing.  If so then don't expect too many event there as rowers are even less forgiving than DBers.

Well I guess Alcan is not all that bad even with the Geminis  :shock: [/img]

I'd rather "lose" the way Little Boat did, than to come home and watch the gold/silver/bronze flake off from a tainted victory.

Can setting off a bomb at the GO Rowing and Paddling(formerly known as Foundation 2000) facility be a choice..perhaps they can claim a camera and some computers as an insurance loss and then use the new ones at their next venue......which I believe is Victoria.

I'm sorry.......I shouldn't talk like that.....I should really feel sorry for the officials.....I mean....with the lack of equipment they had.....it must have been difficult for the finish line with perhaps 6 people in that teeny weeny tent they had to record and time the races effectively.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/ron_cheng/2005RichmondFinal2.jpg)

I was not a paddler on any of the teams at yesterday’s races in Richmond but merely a spectator.   In reviewing the posts on this thread, it would appear that if the officials did have a photo finish to rely on, this debate would have been avoided.   I agree that by having paddlers or teams “question the legitimacy” of the official’s judgment is problematic for the “integrity” of the festival.  

For arguments sake, here is the photo posted by “Steamrollers Moaner” with three lines drawn in with various possible finish lines.   With this interpretation, one could argue that the judges’ call may be questionable.   But this is not the official photo and we don’t know where the finish line really was.   Only a photo finish taken by the officials could provide a definitive answer.   This is what Alcan does and I believe if teams want to see the photo finish, it is available upon request.

Telling someone to “suck it up and train harder next time” will not solve this issue.   The problem is, even if you were to train harder next time, and the final race is close (which they often are in the competitive division) and there is no photo finish to rely on, the same concern will arise again.  

Judging race results without a photo finish can easily lead to errors.  I don’t think it is fair to call the judges monkeys but it did appear that they (I think there were three of them) were sitting side by side.   As such, three different sets of eyes were looking at the finish line from three different perspectives based on the different seating positions they were in.   For the Alcan Festivals, I understand that if the photo equipment system fails, the judges must sit in a position so that their visual line of sight is the same.   This is accomplished by sitting on a ladder (one on top of the other) or a set of stairs.

I think the Richmond festival has the potential to be one of the festivals of choice for teams in the future, especially when the new boathouse is built by UBC.  There seems to be some good constructive comments for improving the Richmond Festival in this thread.   For any paddler or team, whether rec or comp, I think all would agree that you would want to be confident that the officiating was done fairly and competently.  I would not want to see teams boycotting the Richmond race or the calibre of teams drop based on yesterday’s events.

Ronnie said:


Always interested in hearing from people that want to improve the system.

Here are my two-cents worth:

a) Certification of officials. Doesn't have to be fancy, but something that keeps the the officiating standard.  We all have experiences of mis-starts and collisions being metted out with inconsistent penalties (if any) from race officials.

b) Photofinish based on cameras that can split faster than 42ms as it is possible than that final surge could pull a boat by one seat (the last 16cm)

c) Timing not based on human sight/trigger push but on the boat crossing the finishing line using an electronic sensor.

On the other hand:

a) Keeping event costs down.

b) Other Neptune himself intervening, running starts for some races are inevitable.

So.........when your team loses, it is never your fault?   Gosh, my little rec team has never considered that.  We could have fun with that....we could appeal every race we lose and annoy just about everyone - regardless of how hard the race venue people worked to make a great weekend of racing.

Sorry, I am old....not in dragon boating, just in age.....have watched my partner race for 6 years and only started paddling myself 3 years ago......but........what is the issue? (by the way, there was a post here awhile ago about what you know after each year of paddling - it was interesting - I am proabably in the "stupid" category.

Pick a festival, go in it, deal with the vagaries of officiating.  I. personally, do not wish laser lines on start and finish.   Or, sorry, can anyone guarantee that everyone will start dead even and that spectators half-way down the course will be able to tell the winner?

Deal with it.

http://f2000p.org/database/img_42e45e5a9c410.pdf

You are not comprehending the concerns of those affected.  They are not whiners, they just want justice.  It is unfair to work so hard, cough up hard earned money into this festival, and have poor officiating ruin it all.  The fastest team in the race should win.  Keeping silent will only mean that the same thing will happen again. By the way, I think many teams at LAST YEAR's Richmond festival '04 were affected the same way as Little Boat, but decided kept private about this issue because last year, there WERE the SAME problems with officiating and finishline results.  Ding Ding!  One year later, it happens again.  I'm just glad to see that someone is taking charge and doing something about it.  Hopefully this can prevent it from happening again in '06




You don't have to be unless you really want to be  :lol:

woodsman: don't you know that there was another thread relating to the "whining" of officiating.   Also, you're right... maybe we should all keep quiet when injustice is apparent.   Why don't you tell that to the rest of the world?   Why don't you tell that to people fighting for human rights, equality, fair trials, etc..etc.. to just "deal with it"?    The paddlers on Little Boat have a reason to protest.   As turtle mentioned, you're not comprehending the issue at hand... which is obvious.

tiger: sorry for hijacking the thread for a second.

Some really great points in this discussion, and unfortunately we were in the "ribbon round" so that win or lose, we didn't really care. Richmond fest was fun, and on the whole, well organized. <Public events are hard to plan...>

As for the final comp. race, that was super close and it's a shame they didn't have better measuring systems.

Lasty: Is anyone actually writing the Richmond Dragon Boat Festival Organizers and letting their steam out? It's no good complaining about this stuff in a dbWest Forum if the organizers don't read it.

Thus, for those who have serious justified gripes about the festival's organization, I encourage you to write them directly. You'll have a better chance to see the changes you want to see. Good luck!

The Dragonslayers actually came third in Blue C based on the official results... so 11th overall.


The only problem with that statement is that Richmond shouldn't feel like a grassroots event since this is their 4th year. Plus it's run by GO Row, formerly Foundation 2000plus. These are the same organizers that have been running the Victoria Festival (Victoria is celebrating their 11th year as a festival. I'm not sure if Foundation 2000 was running their festivals from the beginning though) and they run the major rowing events around the capital region and the lower mainland. Which brings attention to why they did not use their timing equipment from their other events for Richmond. Unless they don't have the equipment, but considering the calibre of their other events I find it very unlikely.

Personally I don't even want to comment on the Blue A Final picture since it will probably be beaten like a dead horse soon. But just to humour everyone... let's look at the picture... First, we all know that the wood pilings were the reference points for the finish line (whether the first or the second is another question). Second, we know based on the times throughout the day, we can see the current changed from against the boats to with the boats (sorry teams.. you didn't get better as you advanced). Also, we know that the tide dropped as the day went on, leading to more slack on the anchor lines on the finish line buoys. Based on these assumptions we can say that the finish line buoys are being pushed well past the true finish line. What does all this mean? Absolutely nothing. Why is that? Because there's in nothing official to refer to. Hell, we could pretty much say that GPRC United (Sorry, just drawing names off the top of my head) should have won the final. I know that a gross overstatement but the problem is there. There is no record of the actual event other than a piece of paper. Unfortunately, that piece of paper loses it's validity once they take a couple of them down and replace it with another one a few minutes later (I'm referring to the Red Semi 4 and Blue Semi 1 results that were posted initially with SFU Dragonbytes coming first in the Red Semi and ScotiaDragons coming first in the Blue).

In regards to the finish line set up. I have done finish line for dragon boat regattas in the past. Here's the deep dark secret to how most finish lines are done. Yes, there is a setup where we set up a string with a weight at the end that would represent the finish line. Yes, there is a stopwatch for each lane. There is a radio going from the startline to the finish line. When you hear "go" or the "horn" or whatever they use to start, the timer will hit start on their stopwatch. The timer will then sit there for however long it takes the race to reach near the finish line before eyeballing when the front of the boat crossed the "string" and then hits stop on the stopwatch. As you can tell.. a lot of things can go wrong. Ideally, there is one timer for each stopwatch for each boat (which makes me wonder how the three timers at Richmond did the 4 and 5 boat heats). Ideally, the timers will stand behind the line to minimize the discrepency in perspective. For an example... try looking at an object... close one eye... now look at the object with just the other eye... (wow... it moved!!) Based on this example, it really makes me worry about how the Richmond finish line did  it with three timers sitting side by side...

Unfortunately there is little much teams can do about this. They can complain till they're blue in the face but that will not change anything. To the people telling them to suck it up and stop whining. It's not about the fact that they lost. It's more of the circumstances... the festival left a large amount of doubt in their minds as to what really happened.  And everything about the festival points to a lack of accountability with the changing race grids, "strange" starts and mysterious results that get changed. If the organizers were able to back up what was posted up, then everyone would be happy. Instead, they were told to the tone of, "too bad, so sad. We'll see you next year" when the topic was brought up to them.

However the organizers must realize that this is much like retail. A happy customer will be more than likely to return. With an unhappy customer, even though you already have their money, you probably won't be seeing them again. Am I saying that the medals should be redistributed? No, that bridge has already been crossed and the damage has already been done.
I have already heard many people say that they will never enter an event that is run by GO Row...

As everyone on here knows, I have always been encouraging the sport of dragon boating to develop into a true sport and it's been great to see that the number of festivals has been increasing by leaps and bounds over the past years. People are saying that it's because of a tight budget that they could not get the proper equipment but this is an organization that has over 10 different paddling and rowing centres around BC... for an organization this size, I would hopefully expect to see it run a race like Richmond with more legitimacy.

Enough typing.. time for bed...

if any paddler who won a medal that they knew they didn't rightfully win actually came forward and said, "i know i didn't win this medal fairly, so i don't want it", i'd have to give them huge kudos.  will anyone do that?  not sure.  i know i would.  but i've got an overly large conscious and like to earn what i get.

There are so many ways to interpret that type of picture.  If you take the following scenario, for example, which assumes the far bouy is accurate and the near bouy has drifted then the results confirm what the officials are saying.

 (http://members.shaw.ca/xtremereach/FINAL-A.JPG)

Based on your scenario that the far buoy is in the correct place and that the inner buoy (by lane 1) is the one that's drifted, since the current was going out with the boats, then boat 1 already passed the finished line.

And don't take this personal cause we know your team paddled hard and did well during the festival.  You guys posted consistent fast times throughout the day.

However, Magnum, that's the whole point of having an official photo finish.  There is no room for misinterpretation if the event was done professionally.

*yawn* I really need my coffee for this one... I must say though that all these "picture" analysis means absolutely nothing... but I have to admit that it's interesting seeing how people can interpret a single picture.

Magnum, there is a certain flaw in your scenario. Based on your lines, you are saying that the near buoy drifted short of the finish line. It has been stated before that the boats were paddling with the current by the time the final race was run, therefore if the buoys were to have drifted they would be past the true finish line, not before.

sorry, Steamrollers Moaner, you know I'm a Steamrollers and Little Boat fan and I wouldn't argue with you unless I was sure, but I'd call the placing the same way the officials did.  I was standing at the finish line tent.  Boats 1 and 2 were neck and neck for 3rd and 4th from what I could see.  So from your picture, if you could draw a line from the nose or tail of 1 and 2, Boat 4 was in the lead and Boat 3 was second.

..... just don't want the Little Boaters to feel cheated of anything.

I don't understand you comment about current?  In the last race we were still dealing with a downstream current.  The tide may have been less of a factor but the boats were definitely not drifting upstream at any point during the day.  You only had to watch the debris floating down the river late in the afternoon to confirm this.

Regarding the value of an official photo finish I completely agree. All this discussion would be a mute point if it existed.

It si really a bummer when:

1. there is no official Finishing line Photo
2. No one knows where the finish line really is
3. there is controversy to end an otherwise good day of racing.

Being witness to the same fiasco in Kelowna in the final race last year it is difficult even with the finish line cameras to see the clear winners (especially if the final shot is blurred or very grainy)
Having previously seen the kick ass finish of Extreme reach and the other teams in the finals (First race this year I missed doing the spouse thing! Oh Well) why don't they all head down to Victoria the week before the Victoria 13th race and settle it in the Victoria island champions in the gorge on the 6th. Same GO club except they have the finish line cameras there and no crazy current.
1 day event where it can be settled on the water! THAT would be a great rerace. Onlyone day event and pretty cheap as well!

http://www.f2000p.org/programs_events/vi_championships.php?id=5&press=1&draw_column=3:3:2

1 day race, Great beer tent (I mean reallly great) And a smooth running controversy free event!
Magnum knows about this baby! GO Absolut!

If I take your finish line then the start line was very much off since they did not line up with that much offset.  Remember I looked at how they did the starts, did you?  There was very little offset between the lanes at the start, which means the finish should have very little offset. So again it comes back to the organizers, either they had a race course set up so that lane 3 and 4 raced about 25 metres less than lane 1 or they had terrible finish line officiating.  In the end, some teams have slightly tarnished medals and unfortunately I think Xtreme Reach is one of them.

Hi there Everyone, This was my first year attending this particular festival, and I would just like to say that I for one, had a great time in Richmond...

I find the negative comments on this board regarding the Richmond races somewhat inane because I think we should all be cheering for one another's successes, and encouraging those that didn't perform as well as they wanted to....

Slamming GO & the race volunteers is not the way to resolve anything - sometimes tides or currents/race official perspectives/dragon boat condition/and team dynamics etc etc work for us, and sometimes against us...but these things should still be part of the fun and excitement that Dragon Boating is supposed to be all about!

So for all the sour pusses out there, please just relax.....you too will get your *bling-bling* one day! Tara :wink:

PS - Thanks to all the GO volunteers! You all did a great job!

It is unlikely this photo was taken at or near the finish line tent.  Logically, if you take the two sets of pilings  on the opposite side of the river (one on the shore and one in the water) and extend a line between the two of them you will get a line that is perpendicular to the shore that goes straight across the river.

The photo was in fact taken by someone who stood to the immediate left of the tent (facing the race course).

You must have sat out that race and was working the finish line  :lol:

Anyway you look at it, without an official picture someone will dispute the finish of various races.  It still comes down to what a festival should be doing in this day and age and Richmond (or GO) just don't have it, 3 people sitting side by side is just not what is correct.  Anybody disagree with that?  If so then explain how that can be a valid finish line setup.

As for volunteers, as I stated way back when the dock personnel were good, starts were okay, too bad about the rest though.

I can't give Richmond festival two thumbs up, but at the same time the problems weren't to the point where I would say that I was never coming back.

The start line was an improvement over last year.  This year they had the boats lining up in front of the bridge rather than under it.  Last year, we had one race where our lane was in the center channel of the bridge and the wooden bumpers protecting the bridge blocked our line of sight to the starter and the other boats plus it was hard to hear the commands.  

The first 5 or so races this year did not have an air horn for the starting signal so some boats had problems hearing the GO! command.  I was a little surprised that they did not go for more of a running start.  They were trying to line the boats up on a stationary line which given the current resulted in some boats moving backwards at the start.

It was disappointing that the festival reduced the number of divisions this year.  I think 4 or 5 divisions would be more appropriate for this event.

The changes in the number of teams per heat was kind of interesting and messed up the flow of the races a bit.  If the festival is wanting to increase the number of teams attending, they will need to bring a couple more boats.

I won't bother adding to the finish line discussion :)  

And we will be sending in our comment sheet.

StraightLine

Ok. I have to add something here because obviously some people are not getting the reason why we come here in the first place.

You may think it is slamming and maybe it is. I will think of it as freedom of expression and speech. Isn't it why this country of ours is a wonderful place to live?

I would like to think that in this day and age of modern technology some of the lovely people at GO would know about this website and would go to it and read what people have to say. Did it ever occur to them that maybe people have more courage to say it here rather than submit it in writing? Also did it not occur to them that this way is a lot easier than putting it in writing in some other format and maybe mailing it out or find some way of getting it to them? If you make it too complicated to send feedback then most won't bother.

Too bad I was not there this past weekend but I know some of those on this site personally who are criticizing the people who ran the races and normally they wouldn't make a stink about it unless it was really really bad. So my point is stop defending the organizers because obviously there was something wrong and it should be rectified. A team I am involved with raced there and surely they too were victims but yet enough people have said something so there is no sense in repeating it over and over. If you are going to defend anything make sure you have something to back it up. All those who commented negatively about the racing this past weekend have sufficient evidence - the other racers who were there also! And I think a lot of them may not even be on the same team!

I will say that having a good race management/organization crew running the races is the way to go. I am involved in race management/organization as a water official and things are always consistent so not to leave too many things go wrong. Rules should be the same where ever you race.  Consistency is what we all ask for in DB racing. Don't you think?

You are assuming that the pilings are perpendicular to the shoreline and that the timing tent is in that line on shore.  There is no logic in that.

I for one noticed that the shoreside finish buoy was about 30m downstream from the river-center buoy all day.  Forget about the timing equipment, times can be figured out by the video replays.  Something is wrong if a festival can't afford a video camera, tv, and a piece of white tape to put on the tv.  I do seem to recall that there was video in previous years....maybe I'm wrong.

The only problem is, no one knows who won a medal incorrectly....There is no way to accurately tell who won.

Good point people, I just think that we all worked really hard for it.
I'm fortunate to be on a team with great personalities and sportsmanship And I show respect to all the teams that I raced agaisnt. And obviously we are there for the fun but we are also there for the competition.

I think that proper equipment should be required at all festivals. If it is for the fun of paddling, I think it's fun to just paddle in false creek and race agaisnt whoever is on the water... why bother paying to participate in festivals?

I came from a place where dboat are broadcast on tv. Where they build man-made lake just for dboat races. Everything has a systematic approach. My dad used to coach and officiate before we moved to Canada. I do understand the need of precise measurement when it comes to races.

I would really like that to be achieved in Vancouver, especially with the smaller events like Richmond.

A good officiating system isn't all about money, but it sure does require more than three pair of eyes.

RIGHT ON COLOSSUS! I would not want to keep a medal if I knew my team didn't actually deserve it. I have never been involved in any such scenario and hope I never will either! PHEW!

ditto !

Nice one sousou!!! lol  :rofl:

Okay everyone.. we need a picture posted that shows the other angle.  The picture on this forum is from before the finish.. everyone knows that the team closest to the camera is going to show up as being in front.
To settle this dispute fairly to the teams that won medals, someone needs to put a picture in that was taken from the "right" side of the timing tent.
Lil boat... we'll be glad to re-race that race at the Gorge if you dare to come to the island.  We travelled to Richmond, it's only fair you come to the island. :Cheers:

I have a pic from a different perspective, how do I post it?

This photo was taken by someone standing right next to the right side of the finish line tent.

(http://members.shaw.ca/xtremereach/A-FINISH.JPG)

That's the one.....!

Perhaps you have proved your point that a photo taken at a different angle will reflect a different result.  However, posting this photo does not assist in anyway to solving the root of the problem - the lack of finish line photos/recordings.  This photo is also not a finish line photo.  It only adds to the argument that the race organizers should be the ones responsible and accountable for providing accurate results.

[rant]
there is a difference between losing fair and square, and losing amongst HUGE controversy.  
this is pulling from the bottom of the "in theory" hat, but why not, eh?  in theory, the judges could have already pre-decided the results that they wanted and printed out pre-made sheets from their computer as soon as the race was over.  there was no way to verify the results.  if a judge happened to blink at the instant that 2 boats crossed the line neck-in-neck, and one was in the middle of a power while the other was not, the extra surge from the power series might have been enough to inch out a win, but the judge would have missed it and would be confused as to who came in first.  the two people on either side would have completely different views/angles on the finish and would probably call opposite results to eachother.  what to do, what to do?  
this is where the photo/video/timing equipment comes in handy, to help alleviate (i can't spell, so sue me) human error.  the judges would be able to look back on the footage/photos and see just who had come across the line first.  

you talk about "its only a sport"?  in the olympics, when the rowers are neck in neck, and because there is no photo-finish equipment (again, the "in theory" bit) and the judge blinked, he made the wrong call.  are you going to tell the real winner that its "only a sport" and to suck it up?  

here's a real-life example for you concerning people posting "silly and childish negative comments":
a few years ago, i was ranked #2 in BC for my weight category in Judo and on my way to the Nationals. in my division at this one tournement, there was a guy who had been consistantly injuring (to the point of not being able to compete anymore) everyone he fought.  everyone, including myself, "sucked it up" and didn't say anything to the judges about it.  i fought him, and he yanked my shoulder out of its socket using an illegal move.  he should have been disqualified, but no one seemed to notice.  i was out of Judo for 3 months and in rehab for a lot longer (still hasn't healed properly).  i missed my shot at the Nationals that year because of it.  if someone had spoken up sooner about his use of illegal moves, quite a few people could have been perhaps less injured (always that risk in Judo) and the tournement would have been more enjoyable for all concerned.  have you ever noticed that changes rarely happen when a concern is not expessed/voiced?  
[/rant]

Awww leaving this forum/website so soon Ms Rogers? I hate to say this but coming from someone who has been in the this wonderful sport for 14 years myself I think it is you that has to mellow out lady! I don't think you even read what I said. I would like to think that my being involved in many aspects of this sport would weigh some sort of positive and constructive criticism. I have paddled at different levels from novice to rec to competitive (and still do in competitive that is!), started 3 different teams of all levels, coached teams in the recreational level from a level C to an A, and I have been officiating races for 4 years now. The point I made earlier was that unless there was an "official" finish line photo to back up the final results you will get people to start questioning them. It is only human nature. Now I am not a psychologist by any stretch of the imagination but you have to put yourself in the other peoples' shoes to see where they are coming from. Now that there was another photo to the right of the finish line tent posted on this site obviously the results seem quite different than the photo taken to the left of the finish line tent. All the good folks on here were doing was just prove it to us and we'll shut up. I know that in all the races I have officiated theres usually some way to back up the findings.

Please don't go away from this site. This site is quite interesting. I just wished I was here from day 1 but nope I only got wind of it about a year ago! LOL I like it when people support each other and challenge each other to do better and so forth. Don't get offended because we are all free to express our opinions without damaging anyone's reputation or slandering. If this happens you can bet you ain't gonna be welcomed here no more. Am I right moderators?

And as for what Guido said I think you missed the part where he said he shouldn't be talking like that. Also if you knew his history he is actually quite a knowledgeable fellow who uses a lot of sarcasim to make his points. So again no offence was ever intended. Don't you think he would have been banned from this site by now even for that comment?

And lastly I am an ex-islander myself. I would like to think that the island folks are very competitive souls and trust you me I know a handful of them that spanked my team in the past years when we raced off and I did take it like a man! So a good win is a good win but you must understand those of us that either were there or were not there but are reading stuff on here, we just wanted to see the proof!

Enough said by me because I am starting to sound like a veteran bah hum bum kinda fellow and I am usually quite easy go lucky kinda dude.

Peace out!

agreed

Agreed here too! Wow I am starting to get a tear in my eye fellas! Good way to share our beliefs I tell ya! :)

Perhaps some of the comments are childish and silly.  However, there are some very legitimate concerns being raised on this forum.  That's what you should take away with you if you are going to leave the forum.

We are aware that this is a sport and we have all won and lost some.  It is not the winning or losing that is the problem here.  It is the lack of organization and accountability of the race officials.

FYI, dragon boating is an ancient Chinese sport, it did not grow out of North America in the past few years.  To say that the sport is dedicated to Breast Cancer Survivors may be a bit misleading.  The fact that the sport has been a positive for breast cancer survivors, transplant survivors, blind paddlers, etc. is what makes dragon boating a great community sport.  My hope is that the sport will grow through fair and just racing.

somebody is following me around the forum....   lol!

Since we can't see the other buoy then it is hard to judge anything with this picture.  It is rather funny how the other picture posted earlier has lane 1 and 2 very close to the orange buoy and lane 3 & 4 have quite a ways to get to that outside buoy.  In the most recent shot posted, 3 and 4 have passed the buoy and lane 1 and 2 have not even come close.  If I did not know any better there looks to be be some doctoring of pictures somewhere since the distance is not great for the differences in the 2 pictures (I feel another poll coming on  :lol: ).  Or Lane 1 and 2 are well past the other buoy already so they may have been well past the finish line where as lanes 3 and 4 just crossed.

Nothing proven with this pic either, ah to have an official finish line photo   :P

looks like the buoy is sitting right in front of the strokes for boat 3 (IN the boat) :lol:

If anyone cares, this is a partial of what i sent to go row and paddle organization:



the maps i am referring to are found at the race day package:
http://www.gorowandpaddle.org/programs_events/richmond_festival.php?id=4&press=1&draw_column=3:3:2

also, the park bench (south side) does not exactly line up with the wood pilings (north side).  unless go foundation clarifies what they used as a finish line, all this is academic.

i would have to say that the last few races of the day were pretty tight (regardless of the posted times). job well done to those crews.

having added fuel to the fire, i also want to finish off by writing that i liked the organization of the event.  as a fun fest, i had a great time. participants were friendly, the volunteers nice.  my crew paddled together for the first time in the first race that morning, and they sure paddled their guts out.    AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, there were only two ambulance calls during the event AND there was beer still flowing after the last race.  
overall, a pleasant experience.

The race is over. The results are in. The winner has been declared. Stop whining and move on. There is no conspiracy here!!! The judges did their level best. Have you heard yourself?!?! Do you know what you sound like?!?! Let me take the time to educate all of the out there on the meaning of "sportsmanship". Merriam Webster defines sportsmanship as:  conduct (as fairness, respect for one's opponent, and graciousness in winning or losing) becoming to one participating in a sport. All of you whiners out there would do well to internalize this meaning. Sour grapes and complaining won't win races. Hard work, determination and commitment do! You shame yourself and look like sore losers when you bemoan the judges rulings. Show some dignity for christ sakes!!! Next time try harder and stop b****ing!!!

*sigh*  another poster that doesn't understand the situation... and you probably just signed up on this forum for this one post.

Majority of the posters here ARE NOT being unsportsmanlike, nor bitching or wanting to overturn the results from Saturday afternoon (if only you know some of the goofs here on this forum... things might be a bit different  :lol: ).  We are just merely asking for fairness in judging/offciating a race!   Yes, hard work, determination and commitment do win races.   But when you have 3 pairs of human eyes judging the race from different angles, it doesn't give a lot of credibility to the final results.  And no matter how hard you train, or how determined and committed your team is to racing, winning might fall short if luck is not on your side when you lend yourself to this type of crude judging.

I've merged all the threads relating to Richmond into one thread since it's apparent that you guys still think the dead horse hasn't been beaten enough yet...

Are you really this condescending in person Dee? I would tend to agree with Steamrollers that maybe you just signed up just so you can say what you did and probably never come back again. I would like to think that you are not an arrogant condenscending person because if you are then gosh I hope you don't come back here no more. Not if you are going to be saying stuff like that! FFS!

Dee and all you islanders out there. Why don't you please open your eyes and minds and read what the guts of this is all about? Its about proper race management and proper finish line documenting. We don't give a rats ass who won so long as it was legitimate! So long as the proper teams were awarded their due kudos and medals. All the beautiful accolades. Need I say more? :twisted:

Ditto to Steamrollers Moaner's last post.

You are missing the point if you think we are just bitching and being sore losers.  I personally have experienced being dead last in a race.  That doesn't bother me.  When that happens, I work harder, get my teammates to work harder, so that we would improve in the next race/festival.  

I am guessing that some of the ill feelings on this thread can be avoided if you realize that this is not a thread about Lower Mainland teams vs. Victoria teams.  Daring us to come over to the Island to rematch will not solve the problem.

We are not questioning the calibre of the Victoria teams.  We are cognizant of the fact that some of the best teams in Canada train out of Victoria and surrounding area.  We are simply asking for officiating that is accountable to make this sport fair and just, so our hard work won't go to waste.  In the end, all paddlers will benefit if positive changes are made.

[Continuning to beat the dead horse]  
Medals are cool (but after a few days of collecting dust, does anyone look at them again?), prizes and purses are almost non-existent for db racing anyway....so all that is left is the racing.  It was mentioned earlier but I think the point got lost.  If we don't have proper officiating, then all we might as well just hold races with other teams during our practices.  We'd save a few hundred bucks in registration fees, have beers at a nearby pub, and more likely than not, be more gracious to our fellow teams that we raced against.  Please also note that most of the people being described as crybabies, whiners and such, are not even necessarily on the teams that raced in the final.  It is just that they feel that there should be some effort by the organization holding the event to justify the fees paid by all the teams.
[/Continuning to beat the dead horse]

The photo most recently posted (with only one buoy showing) is pretty much the view I had. (I got myself into a position as close as possible to what the timers would see.) The photo shows what I saw, which is that it was a good close race, and Extreme Reach won it by a seat or two. The buoy closest to the dock side would be to the left of the shot - it was 'way short of the true finish line and the far buoy was past the finish line. (Comments about drift and current and logic and physics have assumed that the buoys ever started out lined up with the timer's line. Maybe they were never that close.)

I completely agree with a requirement for accountability by officials. there wasn't enough of that in Richmond, but that's in the past and I hope future events are an improvement. The results may not have been precise to 1/100 of a second, but they were accurate. Congratulations everyone.

Possibly as a final weigh-in on this topic, I think the notion that teams will not compete in events run by a certain organizing group based on controversy is ludicrous and indicative only of sour grapes.  Can anybody honestly recall ANY festival that has been completely devoid of controversy of one type or another?  Has anybody seen the finish line photos from Kelowna last year, which I remember was extremely contentious?  I know I asked for those photos.  That was a Water's Edge event.  Alcan has, every year, whining and moaning about the swirling current and the advantages and disadvantages of certain lanes.  Victoria last year had allegations of wash riding all over the place.  The list goes on and on.  So maybe we should all just boycott every festival based on the potential that there may be some controversy, or that we may not win a disagreement with the organizing group.  Sometimes things go your way, sometimes they don't, but this is true of anything.  I have been racing DB for five years now and it is rare that SOMETHING doesn't go wrong SOMETIME during a festival whether it concerns your team or not.   No matter how wonderful an event was, there is always at least one thing that culd have been better, but the event on the whole was well run and generally satisfactory.  This is the case with Richmond.  From my point of view it all depended on where the finish line was in determining who won.  And for the record, I saw the finish line tent early in the day, and they did, in fact, have video equipment there.  I also saw a member of Lil Boat yelling at the finish line guy after the race when the video gear had already been taken down.  That leads me to believe that there was video of the finish, but that the finish guy was confident enough in his decision to weather the storm of criticism.  At any rate, making a decision to boycott a particular organizing group based on some controversy is ridiculous.

Indeed.

We have to remember this isn't exactly Olympic-calibre competition here - oh and by the way there is controversial officiating and bitter disappointment at that level too.

The fallacy of your statements will become apparent should you so kindly review previous postings with respect to finish line officials standing in different spots and viewing the finish line from different angles.  The fact is none of us can be 100% sure of the results because there is no proof.



This is interesting to hear that someone saw video equipment at the finish line tent because the finish line officials informed me that there was none, as they were unnecessary.  It is dangerous to make assumptions of the content of a conversation if you were not present.  As my uni prof said, when you assume, it makes an "ass" out of "u" and "me".



We are aware that this is not Olympic-calibre competition.  However, when there is controversy over officiating, the Olympic organizers/administrators will take steps to rectify the problem.  Do you recall what happened with Jamie Salé and David Pelletier or Sylvie Frechette?

Don't interpret this to mean that we want a medal.  That's not what we are after.  Again, what we want is fair and just officiating.  If that was not present at the Richmond Festival, then steps should be taken to ensure future events are officiated properly.  If this is done, I would be happy to attend the event again.

yes, Olympic level sports do sometimes see changes and improvements in their officiating, but, and this is a little off topic, these sports generally have one governing body that effects unilateral change.  Unfortunately dragonboat does not have this, as recent issues of Dragonboat World have made abundantly clear.  Although sweeping changes to the quality of the officiating, or at least finish line monitoring would be fantastic there is no way to enforce the majority of the changes that I think most of us would like to see.  I must agree, though, that any organization would be remiss if they did not address in some fashion any complaints that are raised.  But we aren't dealing with well-funded international governing bodies here, but rather poorly funded local event organizers who have little or no connection to policy making for DB on the international level.  Should we ask for change?  Absolutely.  Should we be ruthless in expecting expensive, expansive changes to be realized?  That's probably too much to ask, but small improvements each and every year are certainly within the realm of possibility.  On the whole I think we have very well run events here on the west coast.

Well, I think I have changed my mind.  I guess the issue here is that in any race venue the results must be determined in a clear and unambiguous manner.  I would think it likely that this discussion, if Go Rowing hears about it, will lead to substantive changes at Richmond in the future.  To my knowledge, albeit somewhat limited to just a few years paddling, most festivals have at least adequate timing and officialling.

Still, I thought Richmond was a good, fun day.

Interesting discussion.

I am in complete agreement that an official photo of the actual finish line would have saved everyone a lot of grief and prevented some hard feelings that have developed over this whole controversy.



Where I am a quite upset about this whole issue is where a few individuals, based upon viewing a photo which most if not all people realize is NOT of the finish line and is therefore very misleading, make statements that those teams that were awarded medals in this event did not deserve them and that they are 'tarnished' as a result. By all means you have the right to critize the lack of an official race line photo but to make such a comment and to call into question the integrity of teams that worked extremely hard is really uncalled for.

I see you are a newbie and from the island too! I am a former islander myself. And by the way welcome to the forum! I hope you are here for more than the great weekend you and your teammates had in Richmond and to read what all is being said. It is not the racers we are talking about, just the organizers and race management people.

I just wanted to clear something up buddy. I said what I said (in the quotes that you so carefully clipped) that if it were to truly have happened to me that way then I would have not wanted the medal. In fact so did Colossus. Neither of us are saying that is what should be happening. But then again you must have just made your comment as soon as you read my and Colossus' comment without actually reading what we were complaining about in the first place. Or without actually reading the whole bunch of comments since then. I can see how steamed you must have been because you think we are whining or sour grapes or whatever you want to call it. You must be a stubborn dude like me or a dude who gets very emotional at the very slightest hint of disapproving comment against you or your loved one. FYI I wasn't even involved this past weekend so I am just an observer with comments to make because I am also a race official and want to make sure that things that happen else where don't happen where I am involved in future races. I guess you can call me a member of a competing race management company out there! LOL

Bottom line is we are just p***ed at the lack of evidence that apparently seemed to have been viewed quite differently by those involved. Please! I have said enough and don't wish to beat this dead horse anymore as it is now over done!

By the way please say hi to coach Chuck for me and any other former GD's that might be on your team. I think they should know who I am and if not then PM me and I will tell you I am and who my former team was for the past 3 years before joining my present team. Cheers!

what he said.  

its amazing all the grief that can be brought up and out in a person via internet forums that would be virtually non-existant in person-to-person conversation.  this thread is slowly becoming as bad as some car forums where someone is flamed for claiming winning a race against a car that is "impossible" to beat.  (those can get hilarious)  nothing like people joining forums just to rant and rave about situations they weren't present for and then calling everyone out on it.
we're not even talking about the situation itself here.  we're talking about the circumstances; that there was no real way of knowing who won any of the races that were tight.  we had to go on 3 pairs of eyes all watching the finish line from different angles.  THAT is what this whole thread is about.  stop dragging who won what and "you're all sour grapes and sore losers" into it

Hmmm, I have to laugh....

Although I was too ill to make it to Richmond, I have enjoyed reading some of the comments here regarding the situation out there.........

I do agree with Bernman that had my team won a medal that we had actually NOT won, I would want to turn it in and make sure it gets to its rightul owner.

So anyways seriously, who are these newbies with 1 or 2 posts that have just come in to criticize us or the forum??????
It is almost as if they are really someone else who does not want to share their opinion on their own names.  Seriously, how does one KNOW to come in here to bitch about a topic that the didn't even know was happening unless infact, they knew it was going on.......

If that made any sense at all................

someone with their panties in a bunch, that went and got their friends' panties in a bunch and told them where to look/read.  its quite common on most forums where there is any sort of controversy (mainly car forums, like i mentioned previously)

ah ohk....that makes sense...

But so stupid.........

haha yes, very stupid....
you're from the island, maybe you can talk some sense into them? (http://jelloslug.com/shoforum/shrug.gif)  :lol:

lol, perhaps.....

the problem is though.....that I'm not good at putting sense into people....I try to do that to my 8 year old and it doesn't always work........

Hopefully they will lighten up....

For starters, who cares if someone is a "newbie" it makes no difference whether someone has been coming to this site for 10 years or just started coming here today.  No matter what, a person has a right to their own opinion without being made to feel like an idiot by childish replies and comments.  Being much younger then probably everyone on this site, it is appauling to see the lack of helpful critisms being said; all people are doing is whining about the results of the race and then denying it in later posts.  Bottom line is that, by insulting how a festival is preformed there is a chance of putting all of the festivals in danger of not being able to run anymore.  Sure, to some people, the finish line is always in an unknown spot where really the only people that can truly tell who wins are the judges themselves.  Even though there is a definite margain for error, that comes with anything throughout a person's life and in almost all sports.  There is no point spending aimless hours infront of a computer screen feeding off what a person has said and then replying with some immature comment often offending those of us who live on the island.  What difference does it make exactly? Who cares where we live!  If all of you are so concerned about how the festivals are run and how they are judged, you shouldn't be saying that in here, you should be stating your comments to someone who actually cares and will listen to your crap and maybe someday do something to try and better it.  Dragonboating is a fun sport, and many people join because they enjoy it.  If you don't like how a festival is run, then don't come anymore.  Basically all you are saying is, is that you do not like how the winners of the race are determined and constantly repeating that argument.  None of this is making a difference to the organizations, or to the festivals.  Nobody's opinion is wrong, and it's appauling to see how you react to eachother's statements.  Being only seventeen myself it is quite sad to sit here and read all these comments said by adults.  Really, most of you guys need to grow up and realize that who cares who wins or loses or who makes mistakes and such, the point is although the sport is competitive, there is alot of sportmanship that also comes with the sport.  And for all the talk about us islanders being so competitive, it seems to be all you mainlanders that have the biggest problems with the festivals and are maybe just getting discouraged because you dont want to lose to us.. :(  In the end, many of you just need to pull that stick out of your ass, and deal with it, because what's done is done.

sigh... another poster who clearly does not understand what this whole thread is about..  :roll:  pretty much your whole post reflects how uninformed you may be and how contradicting you are to yourself but its late and if you dont get it by now, you never will..

No way you are seventeen.  Why you may ask?  You have formed a proper sentence and no spelling mistakes, that doesn't happen now a days with kids  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Seriously, though, the only point to be made by anyone is that paddlers are demanding consistency in things that a festival can control.  A festival can control the running of a race but they cannot control the forces of nature so if somebody complains about nature then they are whiners.  In this case, people are complaining about something a festival can control, borrow a video camera and a tripod and set it up at the finish line, cost is nothing but racing will be priceless then  :D .

BTW, not sure at seventeen if math is part of your abilities (languages seems to be though) figure out the amount the festival pulled in and then subtract what expenses they have.  I have and I would estimate they made about $6K-7K so they should be able to afford a video camera (even if they had to buy one).

As a paddler, all I want from a festival is:

1.  A fair course which means measured so that all lanes are the same length
2.  A proper starting line and starts
3.  A proper finish that eliminates any questions from teams
4.  Proper officiating to eliminate what teams may attempt on the and off the race course (washriding, set rosters, etc).
5.  Proper marshalling and a pleasant staff, if it is paid or volunteer the staff needs to work with the teams.

If you look at it that way, Richmond falls down on item #3 big time, I know item 4 was weak at Richmond (there was double rostering, etc), they should have wrist bands or something, item #2 started off bad but improved, item #1 this may have been okay but again based on the other points I would only give a 50-50 chance of it being a fair course.

So overall, Richmond needs to do some work as the other festivals are all spending a lot of time making sure what they control is done properly.

Ditto!  :shock:

I think it's reasonable to expect:

1. A fair course in as much as the weather, current and other non-controllable elements permit
2. A well-marked starting line and a starter who knows what he or she is doing
3. A well-marked finish line with fixed shoreline markers (which should be clearly identified in the race package), judges who know what they are doing, and a finish line camera (but perhaps not a fancy photo-finish system).
4. Good officiating
5. Marshalling according to the schedule and, if the races fall behind, delays clearly communicated to the teams.
6. Human errors will occur and we'll be back on the forums to bitch and moan. :)

As for friendly dock crews, I've been a volunteer on the docks for a couple of events and was quite surprised by the number of teams that don't seem to know how to get in or out of a boat. If you want to bring order to the chaos, you have to "crack the whip", so to speak. I like to think that I did so in as friendly a manner as possible. :)

So many of the newbs on this forum don't seem to understand the substance of what we're talking about here.  I don't blame them, there are like 8 long pages of replies.  If you weren't following from the beginning, you're not gonna go back and read the whole thing.  So just an idea so others can understand easier, but can someone change the subject of this thread to something like, "Negligent officiating makes for unhappy paddlers."   :roll:  Just to minimize any confusion.

By the way tiger, excellent expectations!  Now why can't all race officials have the same mentality as you?  8)

cool, i get to quote myself. :roll:   Tiny, re-read that.  the reason you seem to hear lots of comments about people from the island, is that its mainly peopole from the island who are jumping on the defensive about this topic without actually reading what its about in the first place.  


again, friends of friends who get friends' panties in a bunch.

Yes it does matter. Veterans are more likely to have a good ability to read before posting, unlike yourself.  

Good point. That is why people are complaining about a lack of an official finish line photo/video system, which is considered standard equipment these days. And you (and other newbies like you) are the ones bashing members here who are voicing their "right to their own opinion". Way to go and please stay away from this site until you learn to read.

As a contributor to the site, I am very offended by that statement, you really ought to have a look outside of this one thread. I was not at the festival, but I took the time to read every post before posting. You should do the same.

I honestly don't even know where to start in regards to moderating this thread and splitting out the posts about the actual Richmond race and the topic on proper officiating and all the other lovely stuff.

When I put everything together the other day I thought it was all related but now this thread's turned into a rather messy beast.

From this point forward, please keep this thread on the Richmond race... for thoughts on anything else (Go ROW, officiating in general, what the standard bare minimums for a race, Islanders vs. Mainlanders, etc) please start a new thread...

You should read the thread more carefully, and then think about what you write.  The things you are complaining about that people are doing on this forum, YOU are doing yourself.

I give up... thread locked