Dragon Boat West

Is anyone else having a hell of a time registering their teams on the ADBF website. After the problems that they had last year, I would've thought that they would've corrected these issues and made it more user friendly.

It looks like registration online only allows you to be charged with the full Regular Registration price of $2100 rather than the early bird fee of $1750. Funny thing is that the registration for the SeaVancouver Festival is the Early Bird price of $300. Also, there is no option for DragonZone teams in the registration so the ADBF Regatta is only listed at $250...I've tried registering my team and when I finally hit submit, I get a "Error Occurred While Processing Request" page.

and... Why are last year's races on the registration? Is it possible that someone discovered time travel and didn't inform the rest of the world?

Seriously though.. for a supposedly world class event... the registration system is sorely lacking in many departments.

Let see, Alcan charges one of the largest entry fees in North America for a DB race, yet, the fairness of the races is such a crock.  The pool A semis that I was in last year started with boats that were ahead, AND moving!

You want to be a world class event? Get organized, and do everything possible to ensure the fairness of the races. Otherwise, nobody will take you seriously! I still can't believe that their organizers are getting paid!  For the amount of money that I'm paying, I expect a lot more!

It's no wonder that the Toronto festival is now the national championships.

AMEN!  I'm with you on that one!

i'm surprised no one mentioned the gemini's yet   :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

oh no, not the Geminis again!
:shhh:

"I love my Gemini, I love my Gemini, I love my Gemini, I love my Gemini"

PLEASE STOP.......Don't get me started......I swear......STOP NOW....or you'll awaken the angry dragon.  Get back on topic....unless.....this is for bashing ADBF.....I want to be the first in line.

Well.. they won't improve the event unless they hear about what people think is wrong with it... and I'm pretty sure that some people from ADBF read this forum, so I have no qualms about you voicing your "opinion", Guido. Just no name calling, K?

Speaking of money, does anyone know if the Kelowna DBF or Water's Edge paid to use lifejackets and paddles from ADBF/DragonZone for last year's festival?  And if they did pay, where did the money go?

I saw a lot of broken paddles on the beach at KDBF not to mention a few wrecked lifejackets.  Replacing this equipment had better not be coming out of my team's DZ fees.

I'll save my rant about DZ fees and where that money is going for another topic.

StraightLine.

"I'd say bring back the 6-16's even if they might cost a bit more than the Gemini's. At least we would be supporting our own economy."

I agree. The 6-16's are better all-around boats and have served us well in the past so many years.

The only people seem to be complaining about the 6-16's all the time are Greg, Brad and a few race committee members. I guess they were sitting around one day, having nothing to do, and decided to spend some money to justify our high entry fee; so they bought us Gemini's  :cry:  :cry:  :cry: Thanks a lot  :evil:

Cramp’ness
Slippery Seats
Lack of leg room – seems like a boat built by and for midgets
A Tremendous need of adaptation to the odd things under the seat of the paddlers in front of you

My 2 ‘nOobness’ cents:
Reason why they brought in the Geminis is because we were getting too good in the 6 16s – why else would there be a sudden change in the configuration of the boat? Change is inevitable. You can’t really depend on leg drive any more so what do you do? Lean a bit more? Stroke a bit faster? Have more power ups? Coaches will have to think of new strategies. What to do? Moaning and bitching won’t make them go away – suck it up their most likely staying but I do agree with chaos they would look pretty spiffy if they were used as flowerbeds around FCRCC and DragonZone.
Take it as a challenge – an adaptation to the new lego tubs at DZ and FCRCC

I HATE last year's (and probably gonna be this year's too) seeding and qualifying rules.  

As for the Geminis, I'll agree with the current thoughts of the 6-16s vs the Geminis, but once I got used to the Geminis, I didn't mind them at all.  But yeah, I really gotta wonder what went through the minds of the people who decided to bring the Gemini's over to Vancouver.   Must be too much exposure to the False Creek "water"..

Not trying to ruin the ranting party here...  but we have to think BIG picture.  Does one know how much it cost to run one of these events?  Water permits fee, licensing, rental fees for the stage and the parking lot for the racer’s village, advertising expenses…. Sure $2,100 x 155 some odd teams does sound a lot, but it doesn’t cover all the costs!  Why do you think ADBF is always looking for volunteers???

Anyway… rant on   :D

After reading this I just had to reply as I know several on the race committee.  You have very little knowledge of what went on in regards to the Geminis and the purchase of them yet you feel compelled to slam people.  So here are some facts that you need to know:

a.  There were individuals who inspected and recommended the boat to us who were over in Poland for the Nation's Cup the year before.  These people are very highly regarded and have been involved in designing DBs before.
b.  All boats have a lifespan.  Many of the 6/16s were past their prime.  The race committee heard this loud and clear for the last few years.
c.  There were restrictions (monetary) placed on the purchase of boats that limited what was available.
d.  There were bids presented from other makers.  Part of this required when the boats would be available, how many, etc.  The committee received quotes from Gemini, BuK, Foundation 2000.  6/16 indicated that they could not produce that many boats.
e.  The difference in the price of boats ranged from $2,000 per boat to $10,000 per boat when compared to a Gemini.  I believe some people complain about fees so figure out what you would pay with different boats.
f.  The decision was not unanimous to go with the Gemini.  Some wanted the BuK.
g.  Etc etc etc

I could go on but I think you get it (or maybe you don't, not sure of the intelligence level of some  :shock: ).  So "False Creek" slam people all you want but I think you need to step up the plate and volunteer your time and expertise (cause clearly you must have some since you can slam everyone else) to make the festival better.  I believe the race director position and most of the race committee positions are open, don't be scared go for it so we can slam you  :D

If you don't like them, come up with some ideas to improve them.  I can think of a few and I have passed them on to people who have a say in what to do with them. I believe others have come up with some ideas also (flower pots I think are not an option quite yet).

So, Mr. ADBF claims that the only reason FCRCC/ADBF bought the gemini crap boats was that they were cheap.  Very insightful.  Doesn't matter that they were seriously defective, had 11 useless rows & would likely thouroughly p***-off most of their db members/stakeholders.  Where was the consultation with the membership prior to this purchase (which was using paddlers money)???

Mr. ADBF / FCRCC's due diligence was to have an elite paddler who rarely (never?) actually practices in a dragon boat to go take a quick look at a gemini while he was participating at the world championships in Poland...even though that race was not using this type of 11 row gemini, and this paddler was hardly representative of the typical db paddler.

Mr. ADBF claims that he got quotes from 6-16 rip-off Foundation 2000 (to the thrill I'm sure of our own local dboat builder...), BuK (the mercedes of dboats in price & quality) & gemini (obviously the kia of dboats).  No SRS? No Plastek?  There were other compromise choices available out there...

Yes, dragon boats do have a life span and now we are stuck with a defective, worthless piece of crap boat for the next 10+ yrs...  Was any consideration given to go back to the various clubs for more money to get a boat that would actually accomodate paddlers???  Was any thought given to wait another year using 6-16s so that the timing of the new boat delivery was not an issue???  Was any thought given to send actual dragonboaters to go look at the product, vs some guy who does surf ski / OC1, kayak ... pretty much anything but dragonboat???  

Imagine how great it would be if the correct decision had been made.  It made me sad when I was in Montreal last fall and saw over 20 1-2 yr old BuKs and SRS boats all lined up at the docks, while in Vancouver we have waterlogged 6-16s & defective geminis.  What's wrong with this picture?  As someone else asked, where has all the paddler's money gone over the past several years???  

Truly one of the worst decisions ever made...

The gemini's were a mistake !!!! I have yet to see this boat used in competiton anywhere else other than in europe and for that matter Poland . The worlds in China that were just held did not use this style boat and I believe they won't be used in Germany either .The club crews won't be useing this style boat so of what use is this boat for those that compete internationally ?? Look at the False Creek Women ..........what are they training in for the worlds?? thats right , a 6-16 not the gemini .

 So far all I have seen come from this boat is injuries to some paddlers who are forced to train in them . I would much rather of seen the money spent on the 6-16's to bring them back into shape . As you have seen they are selling the Gemini's over in Victoria and for good reason.They can't even sell those boats and lord knows they have tried . I hate to think that we limited the competition from around N.America because we switched to useing this style boat . I know if I was on a team from back east ,and knew this was the boat we had to race in ,I would not waste my teams money (around $2000 + airfare ) to come to the Alcan .

 To improve the gemini's would be a huge undertaking and the cost would make it not worth it .The elimination of the useless 11 th seat is the #1 problem . This should have been a 10 row boat not 11 . So how do you eliminate the 11th row?? It looks like you would have to re-mould the boat .Yes, you can modify the underside of the seat to allow for a little more leg room but really thats hardly the problem . What ever you do to these boats will not improve them a whole lot . I just wish that maybe some imput from the racers was used before purchasing these boats.I can tell you it would have taken me less than 5 minutes in this boat to say not to purchase this design . The BUK,SRS,and others are a far better boat to race in and make it much more enjoyable to be a paddler ,the gemini definately makes you have second thoughts .

 This is my 2 cents and like it matters......... :roll:

Funny how you critize one of the founders of 6/16 for looking at the Gemini in Poland.  If I was to trust someone I would trust an Olympic paddler (who helped develop and found your favourite company/boat the 6/16) to an "Imposter".  The Geminis were used in Poland from I have heard.  Similar to what happened in Vancouver, every other race was a Gemini (or something wasn't there just what I was told).

SRS and Plastex were not out there.  If you have been looking at the other DB forum, there has been quite a controvesy with Plastex and their marketing (actually not Plastex but the people bringing it over).  SRS had lots of complaints at their first festival.  I guess the race committee should have  also looked at the Destiny boat out of Calgary also, how about the D2 also.

So I guess your name lives up to what you are an uninfomred imposter  :lol:

I raced in Montreal last yr in the SRS boat and yes there were a very few minor issues but nothing like the issues you have w/ the Gemini's.At least they could fix the SRS not like the issues you now have to deal with the Gemini .The SRS is a far better boat when compared to the Gemini and it;s made in Canada . Before you go off about what you read on the other forum about the srs maybe you should have tried it . It seems that a comment like that is probably why we ended up w/ the gemini (you spent to much time surfing & listening to what another person had to say, when you should have been paddling  in them :wink: ). They should have raced in it at least once before making a decision to buy it .

 
 When I was in physio last yr (for a gemini related injury) the therapist at this office could not believe the amount of new patients they were getting w/ arm and shoulder injuries as a result of the new boats .I was 1 of 4 paddlers who had come in that week and they asked me about the new boats ,all they said was it made it good for their business . So now add on top of the cost of the gemini's the cost of medical treatments some of us have had to undergo as a result

 You know I sit here and think ...............Have you even had 1 paddler come to you and say ............" Man,those gemini's are the best thing ever
to come to the creek " ............I bet you have not had 1 positive comment about this choice of boat and now were going into our second yr w/ them and the bashing is still going on over this choice. Whats wrong w/ this picture  :roll:

Excuse me.....is there a moderator around?

I thought this spread was for ADBF RANTING.....not GEMINI BOAT ranting....

This is so funny.....please write some more......this is killing me with laughter.

The grammar,  the spelling mistakes......wow.....I'm wondering if any of you got through elementary school at all!!!!!

So who said I loved the Gemini's, not me.  I have raced in better boats and I haved raced in worse.  If I am a rec paddler or a team with 22 or more paddlers then the 6/16 is nice, for a competitive paddler my 1st choice would be the North American version of a BuK.

I am not on the race committee I just know a bunch of them.  My point is that I am just explaining the process they went through.  I take execption to uninformed people saying that people were sitting around and decided on a boat.  As you say, get the facts right then you can comment.  Most of the comments here are just totally untrue so trying to set the record straight.

So you injured yourself and it is all because of the Gemini.  Hmmm, it would have nothing to do with your paddling ability or technique would it.  Ask Rob if it is your stroke or not  :wink:

side note : the comments made by me are those of my own views not my teams  :wink: .....................LOL

  back to the Alcan rant no more gemini bashing from me ..... I luv the Gemini's  :wink:

I agree the fees are too much for what we get.  I don't know where the money goes.  Start line is suspect, I don't trust the fairness of the starts.  Not sure why held starts can't be done, I guess with all the boat traffic it makes it difficult.

Now my mother always said to have something nice to say so:

The seeding was okay, the racing was okay, it was nice to have repechage back.  The semis were tough, some heats were stronger than others but it looks like that was because some teams screwed up a race before that so the strong teams ended up together.  Only one team from each semi going forward to a particular final makes it difficult but exciting, sudden death.

I did like the drawing of the lanes last year for the championships.  It meant the tide was someone's friend and someone's enemy.

Well, ADBF, you obviously share a similar disposition to the gang (ADBF Race Director, his cohorts on the FCRCC exec. and apparently a former Olympian) that made the gemini decision - you have absolutely no interest in hearing from the “uninformed” db community, the people who provided the money used to purchase the boats and for whom the boats were purchased.

So ADBF, please “inform” us...we are all ears.  Have I mislead as to the people who were responsible for this horrendous decision?  Why was there such a rush to get these defective boats to Vancouver for last yrs race, instead of waiting and making a better decision when there would be more DB choices available?  Is it your qualified opinion that the gemini is superior to the SRS & Plastex?

Tell us - was this former Olympian adequately qualified to perform due diligence (which I assume he did between his races) on such a major purchase?  He knew the detailed specs of the boat, vs. 10 row buks, etc and felt qualified to determine the ergonomics - that the 11 row crap gemini could adequately provide enough space to accommodate paddlers - or did the gang at FCRCC once again go cheap on due diligence and ultimately get far less than they paid for?  




Once again I disagree - the best teams earn the right to get the preferred middle lanes.  Do they have a draw to determine lanes for the 100 meter finals (or canoe/kayak for that matter) at the Olympics?  Put the best teams in the middle lanes, so that none of the best teams are disadvantaged vs. their direct competition.

So tell us, one who jumps from one team to another with 10 days before Alcan  :wink: , what would be the best way.  You say middle lanes, I think the people at Alcan can do that but then everyone would need to accept that they may not be in the "best" lanes from time to time.  

So you want the best teams in the best lanes.  I would agree in a perfect world but we do not live in a perfect world.  The "best" lanes change depending on the tides, wind, and other factors, as we all saw in 2003 and 2004.

So are you suggesting the "best" lanes are changed depending on these factors.  If that is the case then Alcan will need to evaluate between each race what is "best" and adjust accordingly.  Just imagine the chaos (not the moderator of the forum) that would entail.  

I guess that would be basis for another thread so we can all rant about "how bad our lane was even though we were the best going in to the final".   I can think of some teams who would monopolize the thread though.  Nothing is perfect but it looks like Alcan left it up to the teams to pick their lane.  Of course they could ask the teams which lane they would like and if they are the best then they can have the lane requested maybe you should suggest that to the race committee on one of those days where they are sitting around deciding how else to screw the paddlers  :lol: (I know they don't but some of you think they do).

Wow, this discussion alone was well worth joining this site!  Thanks for the spice Imposter and ADBF.  I think we can all agree the gemini's were and are a mistake but unfortunately are here to stay  :(  .  The boats should have been tested by a dragon boat team and not a few selected flat water paddlers.  But alas we all learn from mistakes and move on, so shall we...

I made a faux pas and spelled my own name wrong  :oops: , anyone know how to change it?

Tell that to a "COMP A" trained team that ends up paddling against teams that are suited to be in "COMP C".   How much "fun" is it to for rec teams to end up facing a team that would definately beat them in a medal race?   How much "fun" AND "difficult" is it for that COMP A team to race against teams that are mainly recreational?   Please... explain it to me, because I'm cannot seem to fathom where you're coming from.

"sudden death"?!    I don't think so.   It might make getting into a particular final division a lot more rewarding, but are you (and/or the committee) so short sighted throughout the decision making processes?

my 2nd beef: adult division is a BIT "odd"

how did one determine placing.. if by time... then you have one BIG factor... the boats...

i had someone try to explain to me how the rankings were done... first i was confused then i was puzzled now i'm exteremly confuzzled

HOW? and why not go back to original format w/e it was. last yrs seeding was JUST a TAD bit UNfair 0_o;

I find it incredibly ironic that whenever people complain about a festival, some smarty pants always comes along and says: "Why don't you volunteer or help organize" or something. Well guess what fo'? Unless you're a former Olympian or someone who's been paddling since Expo 86, you're out of luck! Why? You got no real experience, and therefore, are only suitable as a moronic foot soldier picking up garbage on the day of the event or doing grunt work for da man! 8)

Ever try to tell someone with more paddling experiece than you that they're technique is wrong?  :lol: (Yes, I'm guilty of this on both the giving and receiving ends). We paddlers have a nasty habit of developing an ego after a few years and it becomes hard to take advice from people with less experience.

The best ways to influence this sort of organization:
- (if you're rich) give them wads of money and tie some conditions
- (if you're influential) volunteer to help organize
For the rest of us:
- complain like heck and make them look bad (what this thread is about)
- boycott them

Of course, there's no way we can vote for the directors each year... naw....

So umm.. adbf: can you ask your friends where the money goes? After all, this festival has one of the lowest medal to team ratios, but one of the highest entry fees in North America! Yet... it's consistently sponsored by quite a few corporations. :BS:

I guess I'll wade into this, it has been fun reading it all.

I agree I wonder where the money goes but we should ask the festival organizers.  Remember the races are just part of a bigger festival, I suspect the money the races bring in goes to fund the other part of the festival.  So everytime we see those really bad acts up on stage, clap because you helped bring them on stage :-).

Now as for the seeding, I don't think it was the seeding that was wrong.  I looked at the first set of races and all of the "top" teams were basically apart (for the 1st race).  That is what it should be (if you want to see bad seeding remember Victoria last year, now that is bad seeding).  The way the teams raced (yes primarily in the Geminis) really altered where the teams ended up.  Some teams had a bigger adjustment to the Geminis than others, okay maybe they never adjusted but that was what made the placing more different than usual.

Now based on what I have heard, the same group did the seedings for Kelowna so if we did not like the seedings in Vancouver then Kelowna should have had the same problems.  Anybody not like the seedings in Kelowna.  I think they were fair, at least for the team I was on.  No Geminis just biased lane(s)  :shock:

That is my 2 cents worth

I guess it's time to resurrect this thread....

Is anyone else frustrated with registering their teams to ADBF? After the problems that they had last year, I would've thought that they would've corrected these issues and made it more user friendly. Wow.. that's word for word what I wrote last year...

I understand that their online registrations aren't ready right now and that they have extended the early bird date but to get an email with a suggestion that those teams wanting to pay for the registration to email your credit card information to them to be a bit absurd. Weren't we taught not to send credit card information through email? I do see that you can send them your phone number to get them to call you but the credit card info through the email really blows my mind...

This has been three years in a row that they have had registration problems..

Not to mention that their website is poorly designed and very frustrating to use for registration when it is working. 

I don't know for sure in this case, but I've seen it happen within other organizations/events - the organizing committee gets stale and either new people come/are brought on board or the event collapses.

StraightLine.

For a festival of their "calibre" you'd expect them to have a solid registration system.

For me, I don't feel very comfortable calling up some phone number and leaving my credit card number with some person. Or mailing off a cheque to some PO Box and hoping that I'll get registered.

Last year, I didn't even get a receipt for my transaction until I requested one to be mailed to my house. For a festival that requires the teams to pay thousands of dollars, you'd expec a more secure transaction that you feel "safe" doing.

Just my two cents.

someone should show them how to create an account with PayPal.

OK I know off topic, but just a little information.

Gemini's should (from what I remember hearing) be on their last legs.  They can be put to rest after this year.  :D

As for what boats replacing them? That is depending on where ADBF wants to go. 

I know people got a chance to check out a BUK boat back in Nov I believe.  :pray:

So people, just suck it up for one more year!  :P

It does seem 'unfitting' for the largest festival in the region to have such a clunky online registration system, but then again, aren't they the only festival in the region with an online system? Still, don't really see why its taken them so long and they still haven't gotten it right. I would guess that they've got some 3rd party doing the website work and that's where the ball's getting dropped. If it is, why don't they find somebody else to build their website for them?

In the meantime, I suppose we should stick to the ole' phone and fax...

perhaps they aren't aware?  are people letting them know?  (sorry, haven't read the whole thread)  one would assume that if enough people complained, the system might be changed.  however, one can never assume. :?