Dragon Boat West

Just wondering how the paddling community felt about teams pulling in "ringers" for festivals and then boasting about their accomplishments.  I know sometimes teams can't field a full team for out of town festivals, but some teams do try recruit top notch paddlers, and some will sit out their own teamates in order to win.  I know of one very top notch team that always jumps on other boats, and FYI some of these paddlers were in Kelowna on winning boats.

Dragon boat, being the team sport it is, unless you replace more than 1/3 of your team with "ringers" (of a roster of 24, that's 8 paddlers), it's probably not going to make that much of a difference. In actuality, it might make it slower...

As well, one of the most important things about a team sport such as dragon boat is blending...so you can have the best paddlers in the world in one boat, but if they don't blend well there chances of being beat by another team with better team work is quite high.

Finally, I think that you answered your a large portion of your question by your comment regarding fielding a team for out of town festivals...sometimes recruiting must occur and why would you recruit slower people, that would not be smart if you want to be competitive.

boasting or not
deep down inside those "top notch" teams know that their win wasn't accomplished by just themselves.

the badminton  & tennis teams i manage "ring" players in all the time. it's "shamefull", but it's the coach's call i'm just his assistant. in fact other schools secretly do it too. last year's badminton provincial; we sent 3 juniors into the seniors round - we sat out the "no so good" senior players and played the juniors. the win didn't feel like a win...gold just wasn't gold anymore.

school soccer teams - use league players not enlisted in their school to win games.

it all comes down to the competition and if you "ring" in paddlers/players just to win the tournament; your just cheating yourself and your team.

but you have to look at perspective, some of those top notch paddlers just want to paddle - screw winning or not - they choose to paddle for that specific team - they made the choice to give that team their 110%. you can't take way their right to choose who's boat they would like to jump on... and the paddlers do have the right to decline.

Kelowna's festival isn't as competitive as Alcan - it was the last dboat fest in BC -  where all BC paddlers reunited and had a blast all together, butted around with old friends, made new ones, bumped into old infatuations, found new infautations etc.

it's not wrong and it's definately not right - but it depends where you stand

and i guess it also has to do with the environment of the festival; weither the races are hardcore or softcore.

-edit-

there is no I in TEAM - a sport such as dragonboat - everyone has to work together so in a nut shell  your sitting ducks if your team can't "blend" both posters b4 and after me have spiffy points

"would you rather have a boat full of powerful stokers that didn't know how to coordinate or a boat full of rookie paddlers in sync but lacked the experiance?"  - asks person on the phone with me

I agree with coach_of_little_people ... even if you bring in a few top-notch paddlers for a festival, the bulk of the boat is still the same group of people.  Dragonboat is not an individual sport, and although the contributions of each person are very important, I don't believe that the addition of one or two superb paddlers is enough to make that much of a difference in the end.

We picked up a few extra paddlers after Alcan who paddled with us through the summer in preparation from Kelowna, and there were 2 "last-minute additions" who joined the Blue Team.  Their contributions were very appreciated (or we would have been paddling a boat of 18) but I certainly don't think they are the reason we did so well - it was the work of the entire boat ... old and new paddlers.

Regarding 'coach's' perspective all I can say is borrowing 2 strong paddlers will slightly improve your team, borrowing 3 or 4 strong paddlers will improve your team, by quite a bit.  When it come to winning a race by 100's of a second it does make a difference.  No problem in teams borrowing paddlers, but I guess I got irked by comments from teams who have done this and now say how they've improved so much (because of the borrowed help and not their own accomplishments).

Hey "paddle me"...I'm a bit confused...

Do your comments regarding "ringers" refer to recruiting before or at a festival b/c you mentioned something about "borrowing paddlers"? Personally, I would never agree with those who "borrow" paddlers once they are at a festival...the roster that is set entering the festival should always remain the same throughout...  Basically, grabbing paddlers when you're at a festival to make your team more competitive in a semi or final, in my opinion, is downright wrong...and against the rules!

However, you must consider that many teams could have become faster in Kelowna than they were in Vancouver b/c it has been 3 months since the ADBF.  So with 3 months of efficient practicing/coaching at 2-3 times per week (24-36 practices) there are many teams that could have increased their abilities to  blend...or the reverse.

there is no I in team, but there is I in vIctory.   Nothing personal here, it's more of an inside joke to the people in Fresh   :wink:  and myself.

You're right, there is no I in team for a sport like dboating where everyone has to work together.. but some people might take on the attitude of win at all costs.

As for the second half of the quote.. look at what happened to the American basketball "dream team" in this year's olympics.... enough said.

The paddlers that we picked up for Kelowna came out to some of our practices, and I have to admit at least 2 of them were rookies, and really didn't blend too well with our team.  

The original Acme members that were on our Kelowna roster were the core of our team-the ones that show up to every practice, and have made a full commitment to the team-that said, I feel the need to defend my statement that we (being the core members) have improved immensely over the past few months since Alcan.  

Our coach, team captain and manager pushed us just that little bit more to improve enough to rise to the next level.  Did I mention that I had either stomach flu or food poisoning on friday night and saturday, and didn't eat for 2 days? I was not able to race with our mixed team until the finals...I certainly wasn't at my strongest.  Being ranked as the 5th strongest female paddler on the team, this probably had a slight affect on our performance, not to mention the 2 rookies we had on board (no offence).

Not that a lane had anything to do with some of the results

Recruiting paddlers before a festival IMO is alright but borrowing paddlers from other teams during a festival is down right cheating and I have seen teams do that.I also think teams that have more than one crew (ie...their A and B teams or their Blue and Green teams) should not be exchanging paddlers beween crews.I have seen some paddlers in for their A and B team before in the same festival.Do you guys think that is fair?I don't think it is.

If any paddler is paddling on more than their assigned team and in the same division then the rules state the teams are DQed.  One paddler, one team.  If you see paddlers on more than one team report it to the race officials and let them handle it.  Look at what happened last year in the Guts and Glory, it was reported and the team was DQed so the process works but only if we report it.

I personally don't think teams do this but nothing surprises me when it comes to what some teams and coaches do  :shock: for the sake of a piece of lead (oops medal I mean)

what do you all feel about recruiting non-dboaters, such as oc paddlers during a festival?
also, everyone know's there's no I in team, but there is an M and an E.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/500ml/avatars/ihb_rubbermagnet_allabtme_b.jpg)
 :lol:

We have 2 teams (Green & Blue) and we never switch paddlers.  The green boat practices once a week and they run their own practice.  The blue boat (which is the one I'm on) practices twice a week and we run our own practice.

We enter the festivals as 2 distinct teams - each has their own roster and nobody paddles in both boats.  

I know there are several other teams that are similar in this regard (Pacific Reach & Pacific Reach Echo, for example).  I am in complete agreement that it would be cheating to let someone paddle on both boats.

I totally agree that there was a lane bias, but we still had much better races than we have at past festivals, even when we weren't in lane 7.

-you must have misunderstood.  60% of the boat was the core team racing, and those acme members that didn't paddle in Kelowna were mostly those that only showed up to practice when it was convenient to them.  Why should we change our name.  We wanted to race in Kelowna, but not all of us could make it.  We asked other paddlers to join acme to compete in Kelwna, not to field a brand new team with a new name.

what happened to you guys in the finals was . . . . fascinating. if i were you, i would have cut to lane 6 when you had the huge lead at about the 1/2 mark, that would have helped, but i don't think the rules would allow that.  :wink:

Back to the original question, I believe we are in agreement that paddlers on multiple boats in the same category (women's, mixed, etc.) at a festival is contrary to the rules.  As long as the crew is the same as the roster, all is cool.

The problem is more of an internal crew issue.  I know the crew I train with, Absolut Adrenaline, had enough new people for Kelowna that they rechristen themselves Absolut Mayhem, but filling a boat (after your paid) is more important than nomenclature.

The issue is sitting your own people out for "Arnolds and Ilsas".  I know that downright sucks; however, if you needed spares, why would "ringers" want to pay for travel and festival expenses just to wait for another paddler to get injury (food poisoning, etc... ~@ngel~, are you feeling better)?  What some crews do is say, "if you come out, we will give you x races out for the festival" which still means that only a few of your original crew members still paddle for all but one race?

I do have a problem with a team that decides to cut loose their weakest paddlers and bring in ringers.  Usually a little bit of organizing handles this: through time trials at the beginning of the season or before a festival, through "crew mission statements" so the part-time paddlers know that if they don't show up for practice nor have the heart for the team, they are out, or to state when paying what the fees are for (commitment from crew to paddler) and what responsibilities there are (commitment from paddler to crew).  

In the end, it is a team sport.  The team that practices together do well together (unless you were unlucky to be in lane four and be a little crowded).  BTW, I wouldn't call myself a ringer, rather I would say I am an out-of-town spare in dire need of more torso rotation.  Furthermore, in that same race, my adopted crew loved lane “7”.  msn(L)

*** THANKS ACME FOR LETTING ME COME ON BOARD ***

I am feeling better.  It turned out to be some kind of stomach bug (not food poisoning) though, because 3 of my coworkers, and two of the kids at the daycare also were vomiting and had other "ïntestinal problems" that I won't describe.  They were sick at the same time as me, so I apologize to anyone I might have infected!!

Let me begin by saying ......I don't believe people are using the term "RINGER" correctly.

After a thorough search and extensive examination online using the world wide web at my fingertips and searching through many many many dictionaries,  I found the following definitions pertaining to the term "RINGER"...

A) From BrainyDictionary.com

Ringer
(n.) One who, or that which, rings; especially, one who rings chimes on bells.
(n.) A crowbar.
(n.) A horse that is not entitled to take part in a race, but is fraudulently got into it.


B) webster-dictionary.com

 1. ringer - a person who rings church bells (as for summoning the congregation)
Synonyms: bell ringer, toller
 2. ringer - a person who is almost identical to another
Synonyms: clone, dead ringer
 3. ringer - a contestant entered in a competition under false pretenses
 4. ringer - (horseshoes) the successful throw of a horseshoe or quoit so as to encircle a stake or peg

C) hyperdictionary.com

Definition:
[n]  (horseshoes) the successful throw of a horseshoe or quoit so as to encircle a stake or peg
[n]  a contestant entered in a competition under false pretenses
[n]  (informal) a person who is almost identical to another
[n]  a person who rings church bells (as for summoning the congregation)

As you can see....none of them can be related to your question.

If you were to ask....on the other hand......

"Teams that recruit strong experienced veteran paddlers on a good team what do you think?"

I would answer Kudos to them.  I've done it before myself and I would do it again.  I had a female National Team Paddler along with 3 other guys on the team when we went to Victoria in 1999.  My managers have always made sure they were on the  final roster before its submission.  I've never had to sit anyone on a road trip(I hate travelling with spares,  and don't think it's fair for everyone to pay the same amount and have to spare a final race).

Hey....if any professional team can do it....why can't dragonboat teams do it.  

Not every experienced paddler fits every team.  I recruited these people simply because I felt they fit in with the people that were on the existing roster.  There are many considerations you have to make before you go out and ASK these select individuals to paddle on your roster.   It's just like a business.  You want to succeed you have to have the right personnel to make the team successful.  There are many individuals out there that can be considered strong experienced paddlers.....but can they fit in with your teams chemistry?   I don't believe so.  

Did it work for some of the other professional sports teams?  It didn't work in Vancouver when the Canucks brought in Messier now did it?  It didn't work in New York when they brought Gretzky or Bure in.  You see where I'm getting at?  Did it work in Texas when they got A-Rod?  Did it work in BC when they got Dave ****inson?

So....if a team can recruit paddlers that are strong experienced and know how to move the blade through the water(along with having a good appetite and can drink and party)...then I'd say the coach and manager and the rest of the team know what they are doing.

I am not sure if Acme was the catalyst of this dicussion, but please people get a life!  Worry about your own team and do your best.  

Acme did not bring in ringers from the National team, the FCRCC Men's or Women's team or any other elite paddler from our DB community.  All Acme paddlers in Kelowna were "Home-grown" with the exception of 3 paddlers excited to paddle in Kelowna.  Those 3 were great contributors to the team and put their hearts into becoming a member of Acme, but I would not categorize them as "ringers".  They are honorary Acme paddlers for life.

Just like most teams, we too have lost paddlers over the course of the season, but it is a philospohy we have on Acme to have fun, party and race our asses off.  Don't hate us for producing good results, but we do not cheat or sand-bag!!!  Anyone that knows us will attest to it!  We work hard and party-hard.  Unlike other teams we race against, we embrace other teams, we stay out late, we drink at festivals and we do have sex the night before races!  What other team can have those kind of rules and still produce good results?  Pacific Reach - nope, Gorging - nope, Subaru - nope, Alpha - nope, Success - nope.  No disrespect to those great teams!   :D   Don't forget that we all pay a lot of money to be in this sport and if you stop enjoying the sport or stop having fun; get out!!

Tired of all the strict rules and those boring out-of-town "team dinners"?  Join Acme!

Mr. Manager

Didn't Miss @ngel say you borrowed 7 or 8 paddlers from other teams (under Kelowna post thoughts)?  You guess did great, considering you all wear skirts! Oops I mean sarongs  :lol:

I might have been mixing up the acme women's team with the mixed team - I can't even remember for sure who paddled with us in Kelowna, I spent half of the weekend laying in my hotel room watching bad tv, and sitting on the bathroom floor wishing I would just puke and get it over with.

I don't understand why ACME is on the spot.
They came in 4th in Platinum A, so clearly they did not sandbag.
all their paddlers (full time or seasonal) appeared to be on their roster for Kelowna . . . so what's the problem?
Did they diss someone or another team?

I met a few of their borrowed paddlers from Victoria, i think there were 3 of them. They ate some of our food and we chatted about dragonboating.

ACME had a fabulous time in Kelowna and congratulations again!

and whats wrong with borrowing a few paddlers to complete a roster for a festival?

Ringers are people too!
To be asked to paddle with a team (other than your own (DUH!)
for any festival is an honour to me.
Whether it be thru their respect as your ability as a paddler or just as someone who fits in and has a good time with their team is Ok by me.
If one person just paddles with a crew because they are short for a festival does not mean they are a ringer. The Term
"Arnolds and Ilsas".  is probably presented by an insecure paddler who sees any addition to their team as a threat to them selves. I've been sat out for last minute paddlers who are much more experienced than myself but i knew when I joined a competative team there is no I in team.
Like previously noted swapping paddlers between teams is not sportmanlike but picking a few good paddlers for a race ain't that bad!
Vivi ACME! U guys rock (on and of the water!) (BTW, who is having all this sex before paddling  :shock:

I too do not understand why Acme is the center of this whole discussion. What did they do? Why are they being attacked (esp by "paddle me, please")?

Get over it...Kelowna was more than 2 weeks ago...it's done!

Honestly, what qualifies a "ringer"?  People keep using this term, but what are people's definition of this?  As well, does this mean that if people are so-called "ringers" that they are no longer allowed to participate in a sport that they love...very intelligent, really!

As well, if teams decide to drink, party, and/or "have sex" the night before a final race(s), this does not necessary make them any more fun than others. If teams decide that they do not want to jeopardize the time, effort, and money they put into getting to a festival and competiting at a high level, that is their choice...but don't use drinking, partying, and/or sex the night before a final race(s) as an excuse for losing...  Remember it's a team effort, you win and lose as a team!

One more thing...to Lethal Weapon...

I commend you on your comments regarding your following:







It's obvious that you know where your abilities and limitations lie.

As well, you have an excellent grasp on what it takes to be competitive!

Kudos to you!!  Come talk to me if you want to paddle sometime...[/quote]

:D
Thanks Little person coach!
Call me for a race anytime!
If everyone kept their heads outta the clouds and their paddles in the water we could go back to the good old days where racing to win was secondary to the comraderie and spirit of the sport!
I also can not lie.....Beer tents are also a BIG part of Comraderie and spirit(s) as well!
ACME isn't the only team but they are good folk.


Bring it on!

what if a team really wants to go to an event but is short a couple of paddlers?   is it "fair" to pit them up against other teams that have a full crew?