Dragon Boat West

Heard that ADBF will have one heat using all Gemini Dragon Boats.  They are much like the German Buk boats. Wonder how times will look like in those boats.  They are special ordering them to be made to fit 22 paddlers, instead of the standard 20 in the Buk boats.

http://www.mpa.mb.ca/PlasDragonBoats.html

Yup.. the Gemini boats are coming.  That's the reason why FCRCC and Alcan are trying to sell some of their 6-16's.  I can't remember the exact numbers, but the plan was to have FCRCC and Alcan to buy something like 4 each and and two other clubs on the Creek would be one to have a total fleet of ten boats.

I think that's it's a good idea to use the Gemini's since they are IDBF-certified unlike the 6-16's and F2000's Millenium boats.  Would be more beneficial for teams looking to race in the Worlds, Club Crews and pretty much the majority of the races outside of Pacific Northwest, to be practicing in the Gemini's.

There's actually a rumor floating around that every third heat in Alcan this year will be in the Gemini boats.  I'm not sure if this is for real or not, but I hope it isn't.  Although I would rather race in the Gemini's, I do prefer races that stick to one type of boat throughout the festival.  That's a major reason, I didn't like the Taiwanese Festival race last year.  Going from 6-16 fibreglass to teak and then to the Taiwanese boats just didn't seem right to me...

I wonder if this adoption of the Gemini boat would affect Vincent Lo's 6-16 in any way...

The decision between Plastex/Gemini (different manufacturer's but similar specs) and 6-16 is really dependant on what your club is looking for and how much time and money you have to maintain the boats.

The 6-16's are usually best for entry-level and novice teams since they are the much more stabler of the boats. The drawbacks of these are that they are heavy and cumbersome when you have to move them on land and require more maintenance that the others, especially if they will be sitting in the water for most of the year.  This is due to the boat having more wood "content".

The Plastex should light enough that ten people would be able to carry it on land. Also they are shorter than the 6-16's.  The thing I like about the Plastex/Gemini spec boats are that they are IDBF-certified so if you have big plans for your teams then it would be advantageous to train in boats that will be used at that level.

The thing with the Gemini boats that I am curious with, is what type of foot brace will it have, because I know the Buk boats don't have a bar, like the 6-16/Mill boats.

Also knowing that those boats a really tippy, I wonder if they will allow novice teams to race in them, because I've seen collisions even with experienced teams.  A few years ago, Long Beach, LARD in one race, and Wasabi Women in another race.  When there is a T-bone in one of those boats, there is a really good chance of it capsizing!

haha... sounds like LARD has been involved in a few collisions  :lol:

Here's the manufacturer's web site.  There are a lot of pictures showing what their product looks like.  They do have foot braces molded right into the floor of the boat.  We will get boats like this with modified seat configuration.

http://gemini.gda.pl/My_Homepage_Files/Page3.html

I find the Millennium boats to be relatively tippy.  The 6-16's seem more stable.

*EDIT*
Another distributor:
http://www.bokkaiholdings.com/index.html

Nice, a little different from the Buk boats.  Should be interesting to see how they perform.

Yeah, I have to agree, that the Millennium boats are tippy, but I know the Buk's are more tippy.  Will have to wait and see about the Gemini boats.

I forgot to mention...if I remember correctly, LARD did wind up going for a swim! :P

purchase of the boats was done through www.bokkaiholdings.com

Hmmmm, no centre beam.  This is interesting as I sometimes brace my inside knee against it.  Can't be bracing my knee against my sweaty team-mate.  

Hopefully Dragon Zone will have some of these boats kicking around so we can try them out before racing in them.

There's a general call to anyone that's available to help out with the arrivals of the Gemini boats.  I'm at work so I can't make it, but I hope some other people can show up and help.  Please see the following e-mail.

Well, the boats, heads, tails, drummer seats, drum; steering oars have now been unloaded.

The 4 boats for Dragon Zone are on the water, however they may not be in service yet, because they still have to put on the brace/bracket, whatever you call that thing the oar sits in.

The 3 FCRCC boats are sitting in the compound at Burrard Marina, until they are able to move some of the existing 6-16 boats.  I take it the ones on sale have not been sold.  In any case I am guessing they will be available for the festival, but for now, everyone practicing out of FCRCC will have to be patient and wait a little longer.  

The 2 remaining ones are sold to some other facility.  

Let me tell you it was a heck of a workout.  Even though they are half the weight of a regular 6-16 boat it took quite a bit of effort to get them out, because they were sitting in the trailer.  There wasn't much room.  

Anyways, enough of the details, I got to check out the boat, sat in the various seats to see how comfortable one would be.  The boats have 11 seats in them, but honestly, the very first seat in the boat is not comfortable at all.  I am not a very tall guy, but man it was tight.  Even if you could fit in there length wise, I am not sure how much room you would have if someone were sitting beside you.  Seats may be a little slippery when wet, because they look to be a smooth plastic.  The only thing that may help you from slipping is some chinese characters that are on each and every seat.  They look like they are decaled on, and painted over.

Bracing is not bad, but will be a bit of an adjustment.  Nice boats, but really, I would choose the 6-16 over Gemini.  

Oh and one more thing, just an observation, but when those boats were on the water, they were thrown around pretty good by the wake.  Which indicates to me that they are very tippy!    

For those of you who practice out of Dragon Zone, and FCRCC, and you see some FC Grandragons around, say hi, and thanks, cause if they were not there today, those boats would still be sitting in the trailer.

FCRCC needs some assistance in moving the Gemini Boats tonight.  If you are available, please head down to Burrard Marina tonight to help out.  Volunteers need not reply to FCRCC...just show up there at 6:30pm.

The new Geminis are now ready for use at FCRCC.  Anyone practicing this weekend will have their first chance at using them.

They're definitely faster.  We had 8 of us paddle one of the Geminis back to Sea Village and it just glided so well...we got there in record time from the Burrard Marina!    8)

One thing's for sure, I will definitely have to get used to that type of a foot brace.  The seats are smaller, the boat's narrower...they are tippier, but probably not as tippy as the BuK boats they used in Montreal...

I still think I prefer 616s over the Geminis...

So the big news this week is that both FCRCC and DragonZone got their Gemini boats in, after a long trip from Poland via Montreal. I would like to thank everyone that assisted in the unloading and moving of the boats.

Since everyone will be getting a chance to try the Gemini's eventually, I thought I'd start one dedicated thread where people can post up with thoughts on them.

Practiced in one this morning at FCRCC. Got the green one with yellow scales. You really notice how tippy the boats are when you are loading into them. Once you get into your seats, the first thing you will probably noticed is the lack of leg room. Everyone's pretty packed in, so some people will find that they will be hit from behind with the top arm on the person behind them.  This is especially true when you are wearing a PFD. This can be corrected by having paddlers lean out more and keep their top arms outside the boat (something that coaches have been emphasizing for awhile now, but it's not as relevant as it is now)

Also, I have one suggestion to people paddling in Seat One.... bring shin guards! It seems that the clearance under the seat in front of Seat One isn't as high as the other seats and with it being so cramped, you may find that you will be scraping the top of your ankle and lower shin against a sharp edge underneath the seat in front of you. I can see paddlers that use leg leg drive to develop nice gashes on their legs until they get used to the boats. For myself, my outside leg only had a 90 degree bend at the knee since that was all the legroom I could get.

Without the centerbeam, there's nothing dividing you and your partner. I recommend you get to know your partner since you two will probably bracing yourselves off each other with your inside legs. I also noticed that the gunnel is a lot lower, but your seat is higher on the water (does that make any sense?), which adds to the "tippy" feeling.

The boat definately felt fast with a lot of glide if you give it a chance. We managed to get a nice amount of water off the bow of the boat as we cut through the water. You probably hear this all year round but in the Gemini's it will become very important. For teams that have that pause at the end of your strokes, it will be greatly beneficial if you get rid of it. It's best to get a more upfront stroke in these boats.

And remember... wakes are not your friends. It's been awhile since a dboat capsized in False Creek so the first team that goes for a swim while in Gemini will be pretty famous... for all the wrong reasons...

Anyone know where we can get shin guards?  Preferably with a discounts when we buy in bulk????

Hahaha... first day in the Gemini's.  VERY UNPLEASANT!  I don't believe I've cussed so much in a practice.  Felt like I just picked up a paddle and paddling for the first time in my life.   Sure, seat 6 might be a bit longer (maybe if you are 5'4").  Not too sure how those big Polish boys do it.

K, for people who sit in seats 5 to 7.  Any tips on what to do for the recovery (after the stroke)??  do you break your elbow on your top arm?  What do you do to prevent yourself from smoking the person's head (or ripping their PFD's off of them) in front of you??

I found this site (http://www.sportchek.ca/product_description.jhtml;jsessionid=C4B1IJ4KN0KWLLAQAQCCHPQ?id=prod2550249&fromSpecificCategory=false) for shin guards...hope it helps.

That too funny... I can just see all the DB teams wearing soccer shin guards.

Guess I may not be laughing after Tuesday's practice when it's my turn to give those Gemini's a go.

We'll see!

ya, but the steersperson pretty much has an outdoor patio compared to the others....as well as our drummer almost fell out of her seat a couple of times....haha....personally, i don't know how they came up with this boat, definitely prefer the 6-16's, but c'est la vie, i'll have to get used to it.....

these boats will definitely make u do all the right things though...as chaos mentioned, u have to have ure top arm outside of the gunnel and if ure timing is off from the person in front of u, u'll find out the hard way by hitting them each time.....

Just a follow up to my previous post... I used the new Gemini's this evening and didn't have too much problems with them.  Now mind you i'm 5 10" / 5 11"ish and in the front seat.  

I got in there and was pretty confortable right away... i Braced kinda like if i were kneeling down on the boat paddling.  So, lucky for me i didn't have the shin problem.  No the only thing 2 things I can really complain about is the tippyness of the bat espicially if one side is too heavy....  the boat kept rocking side to side which was quite annoying.  And secondly, you need to lean out a little more than normal.... so my sides are hurting a lot, and rotating is a little difficiult.

I don;t have anyone in front of me so my view is probably a lot different than having to paddle with someone in front of you.  I kinda got that impression from all the complaining and the painful sighs coming from the rest of  boat.

bah! is all i can say

all i can say is that it is a major pain trying to find the proper way to brace yourself in those boats. i found myself constantly shuffling in my seat

We got to try out the Gemini's last night.  The first factor was getting used to the tippiness.  But once we got the weight distribution settled it wasn't a factor anymore.  But you had to make sure there was no sudden movements or bobbing on the drive.  Entering and exiting the water smoothly was key but the way it should be done anyway.  

We did some starts in the boat and man did that thing ever fly.  The races will be very exciting to watch as the Gemini's pop right out of the water even with a heavy team like ours.

I tried bracing in many different ways.  Our coach suggested both feet forward and that seemed to be the most comfortable.  But I am 5'6" (seat 3) so I am sure taller people may struggle more.

We were all frustrated with smashing our upper hands on the person in front of us.  I think once we get used to leaning out more it will come together.  Hopefully we will be able to get more practices in before the races so we can get better at that.

Another thing I noticed was everyone was so close that my timing was off.  I kept rushing the rate.  I'm not sure if anyone else experienced this but I know I was a total spaz in the boat last night.  

The Gemini boats seemed to emphasize all the errors and brought them to light because the boat is very light and responsive.  I guess if we are MORE aware of what we are doing wrong, we can correct these things which is always a positive.

But I tell ya, if I will any taller, I know it would be a struggle so I do not envy taller and bigger paddlers who are trying to get used to the Gemini's.

Just my thoughts, but I do look forward to practicing in them again to learn from my mistakes BEFORE racing in them (I hope).

Didn't someone say the Gemini's were built in Poland?  Last I remember, Poles are not small people?!?!?!?

being 6'4", leg position is very awkward and uncomfortable.  i'm in seat 6, which has the most room i guess.  still hitting the person in front of me, even though both arms were outside the boat.  my reach also goes up to her knee.
we were an inch away from capsizing the boat between Monk's and the Cambie bridge when one of the guys shifted his weight from the left side to the middle.  that would have sucked.

bracing my outside leg was a real problem.  i couldn't find a comfortable position, and my legs cramped up a few times during practice.

The following is an email from the ADBF Race Director regarding the Gemini's.  Thought I'd share it with everyone.



Just to add my two cents (and to play devil's advocate)...  all I can say is... complain, complain, complain...

They finally bring boats that are used in the international level and all I've been hearing, online/offline, on water/offwater, is complain this and complain that.  Sure, the seats are a little tighter and you have a high chance of getting smoked in the back of your head by the person behind you. But look at it this way, how could you say that ADBF was an international-calibre event when we didn't even use internationally-certified boats? The Gemini's with their IDBF-approved specs will at least give the Vancouver festival some credibility on the international racing level. This also shows that the people in charge can see that the dragonboat races are actually for racing and not just a sideshow using 10 year old boats. I see the Gemini's as Darwin's Theory of Evolution applied to Dragon Boat racing. The good teams will adapt and succeed while the "dinosaurs" will go the way of the dodo...

It honestly isn't that bad paddling in the Gemini's... Like Guido says (and I'm paraphrasing), suck it up and paddle.

Also, here's a list of frequently asked questions...

good points...  i guess it'll take a few practices for people to get used to them/comfortable with them.  changes likes these are usually for the better

I thought I might chime in a bit on the subject after reading a few of the posts.  Just so you know, there are a couple of Gemini's over on the Island.  They belong to Ocean River.  I've seen the new boats, sat in them (haven't paddled yet, the boat was on land), and have recently raced in the BUKs in Capetown (which were from GWN).  The major difference I can see between the Gemini's and the BUK's (of a few), is the number of benches.  The BUK's only had 10 benches.  Same length boat, 1 fewer bench.  Why do these Gemini's have 11 benches?  Can someone PLEASE answer that question for me?  I heard that these boats are designed to have 10 benches, but this shipment was custom built to have 11 benches.  Is there any truth to this?  No doubt, this is why the spacing between the benches is smaller.  Why oh, why?  

Anyway, yeah, it's tight sitting.  No leg drive to speak of.  This will focus the stroke to your core.  As has been said before, "Deal with it".  At least everyone over there is getting a month's worth of practices before Alcan.  Visiting teams won't have such a luxury, best to use it to your advantage.  

Now, can anyone imagine the boys from Portland in these lovely new boats???  mmm???  Hope they know how to swim.

Ha Ha ..............we were thinkin exactly the same thing :wink:  but I can tell you the first time in them I got hit in the back of the head twice ,it was pretty funny .I now know if you stop for a second to adjust .................make sure your still leanin forward ,trust me I'm a fast learner,lol

 I also just checked out pic of gemini's racing in europe and from what I can see they all have 11 benches

Ok.......I've finally have decided to add one cent now...and will add another cent later....just want to clarify the seating.  

The Gemini's ARE DESIGNED WITH 11 SEATS.  If they were to be ordered with 10 seats they would have to have been CUSTOM made.  

The BUK's are custom designed with 10 SEATS by GWN in Toronto.  Mike Kirkham has them shipped in parts and then assembles them in Toronto.  The BUK does cost a couple of thousand dollars more coming from him...because he has the licensing agreement to sell them in Canada.  

The Gemini's are rocky.  They have a lower water line as compared to the Teak boats.  Thus....for the Gemini to flip you would have to ROCK from side to side a lot and/or have a HUGE wake hit you at the side of the boat at the same time as you were ROCKING.  I don't believe they will flip with people in the boat....they would most likely take on water and float to just below the water line much how like the TEAK boat does.  Now...the "big" boys will do just fine.  You don't think we have "big" boys here?  The design is just like the BUK and I'm sure they have paddled in a BUK numerous times before.  They have been used down south at different venues throughout.

Butter.....congrats on your performance at Capetown.  Was awefully proud of one of my former paddlers MPF...don't know if you know him as that but he's the one with the coffee shop in Victoria.

Paddleboy.....I thought you said you were a fast learner....and it took how many hits in the back of the head???? 2?

Stay tuned for more.........I LOVE THESE BOATS!!!!!!!!

I don't know about that.... Seat 1 is awfully cramped.  Unless the 2 people who paddle in Seat 1 is about 4'9" and weights about 85lbs.  

I believe the real Seat 1 is second seat on the boat.

  Shrugging shoulders  :think: DOH !!!! but it happened so fast.............LOL

Sure great to see how everyone is lovin those brand spanking new...(some cosmetic damages during shipping) Gemini boats  :D .  Yeah they are a little cramped compared to the 6-16's, and Buk boats.

I think if we actually had Buk boats, instead of the Gemini's people wouldn't be complaining as much.  The only thing you have to play around with in the Buk boats would be bracing.  Mind you when I raced in them a couple of years ago, we only had 9 seats.  The last seat in the boat which would have been seat 10 the person on the left would most likely making friends with the handle of the steering oar, or the steersperson.  As for the Gem's I would have to say though, 'seat 1' in the Gem's is not seat one, if you consider the drum sitting in the boat as well, good luck finding leg room.  

Hmm...I don't recall seeing many steers persons complaining about the Gem's! :clap:

All I can say is the more you practice in them, the more you will start enjoying paddling in them.    

Hmm...i wonder if people are going to be bitchin about the boats if they lose a race this year. :think:

guido...

mmm...MPF...now what on earth could that stand for?  If I ask him will he tell me?

Interesting to hear that the boats are designed with 11 benches.  I for one am looking forward to the challenge of adapting (again) to a new boat.  One more question though, and this may have to be answered by someone affiliated with Alcan officially.  If they are planning on alternating the heats between the Gems and the 6-16s, then how are they going to determine seeding in the final races and which teams will advance to Semis, etc.?  They won't be able to use times, because I'm certain that the Gemini heats will be faster than the 6-16 heats.  Just curious.

Good luck to all the ladies racing this weekend.   Wish I could be over watching, but I have to work.

later...

I've got a roll of Alcan Aluminum foil so I'll answer your question for you.
Team advancements are based on placings, not times.



There's excess space between the last seat and the steer's platform.  They could have afforded to space out the seats a little towards the back, and move the foot rests forward just a bit.

So, the obvious question is why the boats were not custom ordered with only 10 rows.  Didn't someone from Vancouver check out the boats personally prior to them being built?  How much more would the custom order have been?  For an investment that will last 10 years +, seems kind of short sighted, all to save a few thousand $'s.  

Having used the Buks, I can tell you they are far superior to these boats in terms of paddler comfort & space between paddlers.  I am sure they can also move alot faster, since paddlers are able to fully extend their reach and not be concerned with pounding the person's head sitting in front of them.  I can't imagine paddling in the boats with everyone wearing pfds...

I've used BuK's too, and you're blowing things out of proportion.  Both Buks and Gemini's are nearly identical Sardine cans.  Sure there's a bit more space between seats, but not that much.  We already have the boats you refer to, they're called six-sixteens.  (On this note, I would like to say 6-16's rule, and Milleniums bite.)





It's a good thing to be able to run your spares in your boat during practices.  There was a time issue, to have these boats brought in time for the Festival, but I can't exactly say what that affected in their purchasing decisions.  

Someone took care of the scouting before purchasing the boats.  These boats are really nice, especially the head and tail pieces, you should see them.  Not like those stuffed animals they put on the Milleniums.

Also, Buks wouldn't last anywhere near as long as the Gemini's b/c our boats sit in the water for most of the year.  The only thing I liked about the Buk's were the nicely finished, wooden seats.  I'm also certain that in 6 or 7 years time, everyone would also enjoy the 'slivers in the bum' to no end.





There's lots of room if you know how to make it, figure it out with your coach, what works best for your team.  You could always adopt the Eastern Lunge & Plunge technique.

This was the best thing they could have done, bringing in these Gemini's.  I'm sure a lot of teams will improve (maybe not in this festival, but next year for sure) b/c for those teams that figure it out, this boat practically forces you to paddle better.  Having said that, it will also cruelly punish those that can't figure it out.  Talk about fun!

Was browsing on the Eastern board and came across this... looks like someone over here used a GPS and found that the lighter Gemini's are currently running slower than the heavier 6-16's


and...

Chaos,

Do you have a link for the eastern board?

Thanks!

Optimal, here you go:

http://www.geocities.com/dragon_boat_rankings/power.html

I agree with the posts above that the Gemini's would be slower than the 6-16s given the Gemini's space constraints.  We will see this weekend.

So they were right,  just look at Pacific Reach Echo's times


 6-16   -   2.06

 gemini - 2.13

 There you go ....slower boat

 It was an awesome day ..........thx Alpha for the good race in the final

It sure seems that the gemini's are slower.

Since the gemini's are all new and assuming they are all equally as fast and we also assume the finals for ADBF will be in the gemini's. Then the racing will be FAIR and fun for all.  :lol:

Have been paddling in Geminis for the past few weeks.  Can't stand them.  It is unfair in this poll to lump them in with BUKs, or at least to lump the 10 and 11-bencher models together.

The Gemini boats at Vancouver are 11-benchers and feel like the middle seat in your Air Transat 747.  Back seat of a Yugo.  Clown car.  Painful to the extreme.  :cry: The foot braces are little lumps in the bottom of the boat (like the BUK) but thanks to the plastex construction technique there are exposed bench supports right opposite the foot bumps and in the perfect place to mangle your feet if you are wearing sandals.  Shins are gouged and dented on the bench in front of you.  Knuckles are scuffed.  Ponytails are torn out.  You get the picture.  No leg drive possible.

The BUKs I have paddled in from Great White North are a different story... 10 benches, so you are at least reasonably spaced apart, they have the same (or is it just similar?) hull shape and lift right out of the water when you get going.  Very fast boats.  The wake off the front becomes a huge problem at race pace, in swell it can surge up *over* the stroke seats.  Car wash level.  :shock: But man are they fast and a pleasure to paddle.

I understand BUKs come in 11-seater models in Europe too.  I can only speak of what i have seen.  At 6'4" I am on the upper edge of the size bracket.. imagine Kai Ikaika in one of those things though! :lol:

I voted for the Milenniums.  Simple, comfy, solid, stable, durable, good manufacturing tolerances (weight wise), reasonably fast.

Well, my team paddles out of Dragon Canoe Club so the first time we got to try out the Geminis were at the Regatta...thankfully we managed to get a practice in them yesterday. It definately takes getting used to, especially the leg brace, but in the end it was alright.  What I initially did was shove my outside (right) foot right up the gap in the seat in front but  what I found worked for me was bracing my right foot on the side of the plastic lump at the bottom so it shoved my right thigh right against the side of the gunnel.  I kept my left foot next to my right so that they kinda braced each other.  I found that way to help a lot with my leaning out and ahead. Dunno if that would work for others though...I'm not a tall guy (5'7") and sitting in the 5th seat.  It must be tough for tall guys in the back...

yes, your teammates in the back of the boat were getting leg cramps... who exactly set the seating arrangements?

why that's YOU!  :shock:

If it was really up to me, I'd be breaking out the hacksaw...your lower extremities are just extra weight anyways... ;)

We don't have any fancy GPS but our team sure can feel that the Gemini's are definitely slower than the 6-16's.

Also, the Gemni seems to generate greater wakes at the bow. I am no expert here but I think it is a sign that the boat is "pushing" water rather than gliding over it.

I hope wake-riding will not be a complaint issue this weekend.

It should be interesting to see the time comparision between those 10+ year old water-logged 6-16's and the latest and freshest Gemini's under official conditons during the festival. Predictions, anyone?

Humour for the day, courtesy the Eastern forum ...


the key to Geminis
June 16 2004 at 3:31 PM land lubber
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
The vancouver festival is this weekend.

Lots of teams having difficulty with the new Gemini's

what they have yet to figure out is having a faster, more intense paddling speed is the key.

the boat is so light it gets going so fast, but the secret to a fast time is to keep it going with fast strokes.

good luck all
 
--------------------------
Anonymous

 Re: the key to Geminis June 17 2004, 6:38 PM  


The key to a fast time is to cut these boats to pieces, ship them back to Poland, and go back to the 6-16s.

 ------------------------  
anonymous

 yeah June 17 2004, 9:35 PM  


TRUE THAT!!!!! I LOVE 6-16

Too funny; I just found a "FAQ" on the Gemini boats on the Alcan web site. You know something is not right when the festival needs a FAQ to push for the boats to be accepted. Someone out there is selling hard - big time..... I can almost smell the commission.....

It's a shame when I hear that Toronto just got a new set of Simon River  Canadian made dragon boats, modeled after the Buks, with ONLY 10 ROWS OF SEATS, that are getting rave reviews prior to their festival.  Of course, Eastern Canada already uses 10 ROW GWN Buks for most other local races.  Meanwhile, we are stuck with these seriously defective Geminis.  

I predict that the Geminis will hurt dragonboating in Vancouver, because at the end of the day they are just not fun to paddle in.   I wonder who the people were who made the decision to purchase these boats - what were they thinking???

Apparently the decision to purchase  the Gemini's was mostly made by Greg Lamb and Don Irvine according to this Westender article:

http://web.bcnewsgroup.com/portals-code/list.cgi?paper=49&cat=46&id=249667&more=

In the article Greg Lamb tries to tie in Six-Sixteento give the purchase some credibility. I doubt the "Vinnie" that we know would have involved with something like this boat which could hurt his reputation and the sales of his own 6-16 boats.

Greg Lamb went on to imply that if we practice in technically-challenging boats we would all become better paddlers. Is it the same as saying driving in Yugo's would make one a better driver? LOL

The Vancouver paddling community was never consulted before the decision was made. We just heard suddenly one day that the Gemini's were coming  :(   Now is it too late!


*ADMIN EDIT* - LINK WORKS NOW.

Here is the article as the hyperlink doesn't work.

http://www.westender.com/ and then click lifestyles.

 
Know your dragon boat
 
By Lori Kittelberg

Nine lightweight Gemini dragon boats will pose an additional challenge to paddlers racing in Vancouver's Alcan Dragon Boat Festival from June 19-20.

The spiffy new boats, manufactured in Poland, arrived in Vancouver mid-May. During the festival, both Gemini boats and the locally manufactured Six-Sixteen boats used in Vancouver for more than a decade will be rotated heat to heat. The Geminis will also be used in all competitive final races.

"The Six-Sixteen's a great dragon boat for safety and it's a great boat for racing, but logistically it's a bigger boat," says festival race director Greg Lamb. Older Six-Sixteens weigh in at about 950 pounds and the newer ones at 750 pounds, compared to the 550-pound Geminis.

Lamb had Don Irvine, who co-founded Six-Sixteen with Vincent Lo, scope out the Geminis when racing with Canada's senior men's team in Poland last fall. The Geminis are certified by the International Dragon Boat Federation and are similar in weight and size to other IDBF-approved boats. This means local teams training for international festivals will be better prepared to race abroad.

This is a good thing; however, it means paddlers are now working to adjust their technique so their stroke is as effective in the Geminis as it is in the Six-Sixteens. Vancouver clubs Dragon Zone and False Creek Racing and Canoe Club have been rotating the boats so each crew will have ample training time in them before the big weekend.

I'll admit I was wary during my first practice when I came close to smacking the head of my teammate sitting in front of me. Geminis are seven feet shorter than Six-Sixteens, so space is at a premium, forcing paddlers to lean out of the boat-the way we're supposed to, mind you. Dario Baldasso, Dragon Zone coordinator and coach of two teams, says the biggest complaint he's heard from paddlers is, "There's not a lot of breathing room."

With only 20 benches, as opposed to 24 in the Six-Sixteens, teams also can't race with a "split," or a row of empty seats in the middle of the boat. This has some coaches rethinking seating plans to ensure the boat is balanced properly. Since teams could race in both boats during the festival, Baldasso predicts some coaches will have different rosters for each boat.
 
Lighter boats are easier to rock, too. Half a week before my crew tried the Geminis, my coach encouraged our steersman to rock back and forth to prepare us. There was some grumbling that we wouldn't rock so much in whitewater, but the training tool was an accurate gauge of how rocky the Gemini was that first time.

Other differences: As there is no bar underneath the seats to rest your foot on and the seats are too close together for taller paddlers to comfortably prop their feet on, bracing can be challenging. Baldasso says, "There's been a lot of talk about bracing with the inside leg, which is similar to how you'd use the leg drive in a kneeling canoe- There's also been talk that we might shave down the back of the seats." Wearing shoes with thin soles or even paddling barefoot, as he does, can help increase the amount of foot and bracing space.

"There have been some complaints, and I acknowledge that," says Lamb. However, he adds that the more teams practice in the Geminis and perfect their technique, the more comfortable they'll be and, in turn, they'll become better paddlers. "I think this boat, because it's a lighter boat, you have to be a more technical paddler- It forces your crew to get better."

what happened to the other forum on the gemini's?  that was great.. i read everything word for word and loved it!  =)

As much as I hate to bring up the dreaded G-word since it brings everyone out of the woodworks but , I've heard rumors again that the Gemini's are going to be retrofitted to be 10 seaters instead of the current 11.

When and if this will actually happens is anyone's guess.. I'm guessing the majority of the Creek is hoping for sooner rather than later.

My guess is after Alcan since the boats are being used now.  

Doesn't seem as bad this year as last, maybe I am getting use to them or I have a higher pain threshold this year.

It will be interesting to see what they are going to do.  Maybe they figured it out over a cup of coffee  :wink:

Will they be retrofitting the ones at FCRCC only or all gemini's (including DZ)
It will be interesting to see what they will feel like with more legroom. Being wedged in now sure actually is somehwat beneficial as the it makes it harder to shift around.

i wonder what it will also be like to sit in front and trying to coach a 10 seater.......where does the caller sit?

will they just remove one row of seating?  or shift all the rows around so there is more leg-room?  if i'm going to able to paddle at all this season, i hope its the latter.

now i'm kinda lost - so what are they going to do? - saw the 11 seats off and super glue 10 on?

Take all the seats out and make it a canoe?
We can all get pillows and kneel in it as well!
Hmmmm...... Maybe I better keep it down, they may get ideas......

well, the geminis are light enough to be a limo version of a marathon canoe...  :D

I believe they should be able to just pop the current molding off and replace it 10 seater molding.   If not, atleast try to shave down the underside of the seats so that we can extend our legs without getting huge gashes on our shins.

Retrofit the geminis?
Won't that reduce the local teams' chances of winning at Alcan?

I still remember the shocked expressions from visiting teams when then hopped into a Gem for the first time  :lol: ...not to mention how badly some of them floundered when they tried to paddle the stupid things!
At least the local teams knew what to expect and have had the opportunity to practice on them... which gives us an unfair advantage... but I'll take it!

We talked about this last nite and it  would be to big /costly  an undertaking to make it worth while .You would have to replace the top section , you can't just remove the seats as they are moulded into the top half . You could cut the bottom of the seats to give a bit more leg room but thats about it ......... too bad

So some discussed last night, I gather this was amongst your team?  Do you have boat builders (on your team) who would be knowledgeable in making the assessment that it would be too costly?  Did your team come up with other ideas (sinking is an option but that would be costly also)?  What is too costly?

Here is my idea...I'll contact the builder, Gemini, to see what a new insert would be (of course the 10 seater version)?  I'll start up a website called www.saveourlegsandbacks.com where I will accept donations (through PayPal).  I'll buy the new inserts from Gemini,and donate the inserts to the festival, FCRCC and Victoria (get a tax receipt for charity purposes).   The old inserts (the 11 seaters) I put on Ebay and auction off to the Europeans who have to sit in 12 seaters now and then everyone will be happy.  We get seats that will still be too close compared to the longer 6/16s but at least we will get 2.5 inches more (and every inch counts now doesn't it  :wink: ).

So would you donate $10-$20 for something like this?

I think I'll go work on a business plan for this over a coffee.

Hmmmm...........you obviously don't know what I do for a living. I write damage appraisals  for cars,boats,motorhomes,motorcycles ,semi's ,heavy equipment ,you name I do estimates on them to fix,change,repair,replace ,whatever .

 Anyway back onto the topic . Ok lets say we can purchase the upper halves .......great now the problem is how to get them here from europe ....hmmm I assume the transportation from europe to Vancouver will be cheap ....yeah right .We just shipped a 80 lb small container to europe w/ some mountain climbing gear and the cheapest rate was $835 dollars canadian .Ok now how many tops do we need and how big are they ?? Ok ....now we got them here lets find someone to replace the tops ,what do you think that would cost ?? Whats a good shop rate now a days in a boat building shop ?? I bet most are well over $50/hr . So now consider how many hours it would take to change the tops .

 I bet your into each boat for over $5000 by the time the new tops are finally installed .You have the parts,duty,taxes,shipping and the labour to change them .I doubt they will be retro-fitted unless we get 1 hell of a deal and shipping is free and we can find someone to do it at a very good price . Best bet would be to sell them and recover some of the cost and buy better boats with the difference it would cost to retro-fit them . The problem would be selling them since thats already been tried on the island and w/o success

I an see someone has very little sense of humour.  Some people are a little too serious about things.

So just to clarify the rumour (since I heard the same), the retrofit idea came from Victoria.  The G boats are owned by the fellow who has been involved in making OCs and kayaks (aka CurrentDesigns).  I would think he would have a good idea about costs etc so if he says he can do it then great.  I don't think he will put a lot a money or time into them if he did not think it was doable.

Enought already!!!!!
I say put  the "Kai" team in the boats
Make it a 250 meter sprint (in Whiterock!)
Hope for some Wave action and then we can have it sink naturally when it swamps!
No fuss no Muss!
Doesn't anyone remember the NY races last year...... :lol:

:oops:   Sorry..........you know how the "G" work affects me   :wink:

 Yes ,he could do it in house .He would have to make a new mould and design the seat placement the way he felt it should have been done and then he could sell them to all the other poor people that own them and make his money back and maybe even a profit off it or even a new sideline business "GEMINI'S -POOR-US " (say it like toy-r-us) your retro-fit specialist !!

excuse me....that's ......Toys"R"US.....and it was just sold for $6.6 billion US......Thanks for the idea Paddle"boy"......I think I will call Brian on the island and see if he wants to start up Geminis "R" Us and see if wants to incorporate it!!!!!!......Then we sell it....by then it should be worth...$13.0 billion US!

Really folks....what's all the fuss about paddling in a Gemini?  If people only knew how to paddle in them....and knew how a boat works on water....then we wouldn't have a problem.  It's obvious a lot of paddlers are spoiled here in Vancouver with the 6/16's.  Many have never paddled in any other kind of dragonboat, and there certainly are many shapes and sizes out there.  It's such a shame.  I feel for you all..... msn(:'()

that LARD crash in long beach a few years ago was very fun. wasabi was either trying to ride our wake or had an inexperienced tiller.... i was in that damn boat - talking about slow motion.... we have video of it and some of our paddlers were still paddling as the boat went into "ski mode".  wasabi was VERY cool about it though, they profusely apologized and got us a few cases of beer.  feel free to slam into us again....

i wasn't at the portland tournament when the pink phoenix steerer lost control of our boat, but i heard it was pretty crazy - just a few meters from the finish....

sorry for replying to such an old post, but had to try and set the record straight since i'm one of the only paddlers from LARD that is on this site.

I've heard discussion recently about the geminis being retrofited with one less seat.  is one seat just getting taken out, or are they removing a seat and putting a bit more space in between the rest?

FYI, see http://www.dragonboatwest.net/forum/index.php?topic=2149.0 for some past discussion on this topic. 

Although I'm not in any position to know about any supposed refitting, I don't think just taking a seat out of gemini is a practical possibility. For one thing, everyone would be still be just as crammed (with the exception of the drummer, coach and/or steersperson), so there's no realy point in doing that. As mentioned in the past thread, it could be possible to take off the top molding of a gemini and replace it with the top molding of a 10 seater model.... but that would cost a lot of money. ;)

All I can say about a retrofit, waste of money regardless if they move the seats.  Once a Gemini always a Gemini.

 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

thats why i was putting forward the question, cause i wasn't sure which they were doing.  i heard talk about fibre glass work, but i was on my way out with a marathon canoe so i didn't hear everything. 


BUK and gemini share hull design, the difference is the seating inlay.

And the first time a seat falls apart or something goes wrong in the retrofitted Gemini, what will be the first thing out of a person's mouth?  F__king Gemini why did they waste their money on these things.  Once a Gemini always a Gemini regardless of what they do to one.

My 4 cents worth.

:lol:  point taken, but we're already saying that about the Gems ;)

^^^ quite an offensive statement, colossus.   BOO!

stop being such an ass

Even if the seat design of the Geminis was just modified to match the BUK design and they left the 11 benches, it would be an improvement.  The benches in the BUK at Burnaby Lake are made of wooden planks supported by a center column and ledges on the sides.  Much more leg room which is one of the chief complaints I hear about the Geminis.  Reducing the number of benches to 10 and increasing the spacing while redesigning the bench supports would be the best option.

Yes, the Geminis were probably a bad purchase, but now we're stuck with them.  Throwing away 9 boats @ $11,000 each is not an option and I suspect it would be rather difficult finding another club that would be interested in buying them.

Spending a couple of thousand dollars on refitting each boat is an expensive hit, but if it gives us a more usable boat, then I'm all for it.

StraightLine.

PS - Colossus, Zephyrantes - I don't know about everyone else, but I'm starting to get tired of your childish disputes clogging up the threads.  If it's not relevant to the topic, please take it offline.

Does anyone know what the plan is for retro fitting the Gemini's is?

Does it involve getting a new seat insert for the boats?  I thought part of the issue was that the current design was that the seats where integral to the structural support for the boats? 

Also if they do modify them are they going to be able to keep them consistant, part of the reason for buying the molded boats was the standardized boat design.  I would think if you deviate from the standard by ripping them apart to "retrofit" them you may have a hard time maintaining consistant performance specifications (i.e. weight, stability, buoyancy).

Maybe we can get some input from somebody involved???

Comments from DZ or FCRCC or anyone else who has Geminis

yessir!  (no sarcasm here, just glad someone has the balls to voice an opinion. :) )

colossus: stop being so sarcastic!   Straightline was just expressing HIS opinion (eventhough that in itself was not related to this topic)

As for the Gems, can we please get an answer to all the anticipated questions?   I think that most of us tall folk are eagerly hoping/waiting/praying/wishing for the seating to be stretched out.

The other option would be to retrofit my legs  :shock:

my legs feel like they got retrofitted in the gemini last night

http://www.watergear.de/eng/dragonboats.html

Looks like a rip off of the BUK to me...   :)

Is it just me, or do the seats look really high?

Nothing to rip off, the IDBF has a set of standards that all boat manufacturers must follow if they want their boat to be IDBF approved.  Haven't you ever wondered why they put that annoying piece of wood on the gunnel just at the right height to give you that hickey that your significant other thinks is from someone.  Well that is an IDBF standard.  Wooden seats are also part of the standard.  In the end every boat looks the same and they all have to compete on price and quality.  It also allows IDBF to mix and match boats regardless of who makes them (in theory).  The standards change all the time, I was told that prior to last year IDBF allowed 12, 11, and 10 seater boats but now they only allow 10 seaters.

Looking at the price and putting the exchange rate in I am not sure why FCRCC and Alcan would waste their money (I have heard 3K per boat) retrofitting the existing Geminis.  For 8K you can get a new one and it is not a hack job (aka if they retrofit the existing they will not be IDBF approved cause Alcan is doing it themselves or something like that).

Has anyone heard if they are retrofitting the Geminis?  If so when will this happen (not soon enough I am sure)  :lol:

its in process, at least out of DZ.

hmm, well based on that, i can think of a very excellent reason:  a savings of 5k per boat.  I can't see any reason why a retrofitted boat wouldn't meet the approval of IDBF; its just a standardized spec set... they boats either meet/fit within, or they don't... whoever makes them/ refits them shouldn't matter.  Now if they're retrofitting them outside the spec, that's different

Rightarm, I think you have missed many points, just think about it.

Let's see the problems with a retrofit:

a. The boats would need to be retrofitted by an IDBF approved boat manufacturer, I don't think Alcan/FCRCC are approved boat builders to IDBF.
b. The boats are three years old, a typical boat has a life of around 5 years (that is racing life not practice life) around here.  We all cry about getting into a particular boat cause it is heavy etc especially at race time that is why I say after 5 years it is no longer a racing boat.  In addition our boats are on the water all year and thus their life span is shorter than ones in T.O. or Eurpoe where they take boats out of the water for long periods of time.  Spend 3K to get 2 years max for a non IDBF approved boat.
c.  The retrofit being done is supposedly not taking out the inset but just cutting the seats out and replacing them, somehow getting the foot holds off the bottom and them putting them back on.  Think about it, will the seal still be there after that or will some of them take on some extra water.  If they start taking on water then can you say we have a Gemini Barney boat  :shock:
d.  The retrofit is being done non DB boat maintenance types and volunteers to keep the cost down.  Now nothing against who is doing it but you typically get what you pay for, we are not paying for much labor so how reliable will the labor be and the quality of said work (not that higher paid quality if much better but it probably comes with a labor warranty)?
e. Based on looking at how retrofits have been done before, I would be very concerned about the spacing of the seats will they be the same in every boat.  If not then not fair to those teams that get the slightly off ones.  I suspect the seats and foot supports will break easier and if they do in the middle of race don't come crying to me about why did they retrofit instead of buying new ones.
f.  FCRCC and every other Canoe club in BC are buying Buk boats.  I think there will be close to 9 Buks in the area this year which is enough to replace the Geminis when racing at Alcan.

You could probably sell the existing boats to teams/clubs for $2K.  Teams/areas would love to get a practice boat for that price, not the best one but if you are just starting out why not.  If that is the case then a new boat would be around $6K and you get an approved/sealed proper boat.

I could go on about why not to spend the money but I am just a paddler so my opinion does not matter but I do think it is waste and I think you will say the same once it is all said and done.

Tig

Pity the Millenium's used by GRPC aren't certified....they are a nice boat.  I have not been in a Gemini, but have paddled 6/16's and BUK's

Millenium's are nice boats besides being not IDBF certified they way overpriced, all in around $17-18K.  They priced themselves out of every market, the market speaketh  :)

if we end up getting some more stupid GEMINI boats, I think a protest should be in full order.. at least from the large sized paddlers.   

Those foot braces look really bad.   "German Engineering".. they can't even build good cars, what makes them think they can build boats.

Did anyone catch one of their selling features for these 2006 models?  - No bulkheads, a lot of room for the Paddlers.  :lol:

Let's get some thoughts from people who have had the opportunity to practice in the new beasts.
We did last night and while it has it's problems, i much prefer it over the original setup.

That damn bar along the edge feels like it's keeping me off the gunnel though.

I am going to assume the "new beasts" you're talking about are the BUK's? Should this be discussed under this topic or under the BUK topic? Please see http://www.dragonboatwest.net/forum/index.php?topic=3250.msg33026#msg33026

Anyway the BUK's are fantastic. Can be a bit different with steering but overall very comfy as far as getting leg and shoulder room.

Nope... these are really the long rumored retrofitted Geminis. From the outside they look like the same old Geminis, but take a look inside and you will find that the all of the benches have been hacked away and replaced with 10 rows of (wooden?) benches. In a way, they resemble the 2006 Gemini models (pictured here (http://www.watergear.de/eng/dragonboats.html)) except that the retrofitted Geminis look like they've been ... well, retrofitted. ;)

Impressions from paddlers on my team are that the extra room is great but the foot braces seem to be a little too far forward now, the seats are grippier and, yes, that metal pipe/bar along the gunnel is annoying. From a steering prespective, it seems to behave about the same but there is (obviously) alot less space in the back for the steer's person to stand.

that foot brace thing is only really a problem for shorter people.   oh wait, thats most people who paddle.  kinda sucks then, eh? 

the footbrace is only an issue for the shorter people. so in essence, all we've done by retrofitting the gem's is reversing the older problem... used to be big people couldn't fit, now the seats are too big and the little people have no where to brace!

oh well, i'm tall, so i love it! freakin amazing. other than the fat metal bar running along side my outside leg/arse, i would say that i officiall ylove the gem's above and beyond the 6/16.

i like the leg room in the 6-16s, but i really hate the leg angle/position of them!  because of my insanely long legs and the angle of the floor, my outside leg is at such an awkward angle that longer pieces during practice put a lot of strain on my knee and hip.   so, BOO to the 6-16s :lol:

EXACTLY!!! I'm glad someone else get's that.  there's been a few times that i've gotten out of a 6/16 and cuz of hte ridiculous angle my leg/knee have been at for over an hour, it feels like my leg is almost stuck that way.  hate it! but still, they were better than the old gem's.  the gem 2.0 rocks!


 8)

i got used to/prefered the older gems over the 6-16s.....   :?

OK...here's a review from a poor soul who has to sit at the front of these new babies.
I got my first look tonight at the new retro-geminis and here are a few observations.

1. The front of the boat sits reaaaally low in the water compared to the old model
2. the gunnel bars look weird but seem to do the trick in holding the seats
3. It feels less tippier
4. The paddlers seem to have more leg space and it is quite noticable in the front as the shorter paddlers have more leg room (which is a bad thing if they can't brace so boat seating may have to be rearranged)
5, Boat integrity does not seem to be affected that badly (yet) so it was a decent retrofit
6. Seats look kind of "uncomfortable for the full figured paddler...(I have my mothe'rs hips....)

NOW comes the other observation from a "coach" (i use the quotes to protect myself from Guido)

Where the heck does he/she stand in front with a full boat? we had 18 paddlers so there was an empty seat at the front for me to stand/sit
If the boat was full I would have had to do stand on the front of the gunnel?!?!?!
They better get more coach boats cause there is no way in heck I am standing at the front. (unless my swimming lessons really work...)

you mean you dont' like swimming in false creek? 

Swimming . :shock:
I like my genetic makeup thanks....

Gemini is from Poland.  BuK from Germany.  It's pretty standard over the past decade that BuK comes out with the best product and then everybody else copies it.  As we like to say, often imitated, never duplicated!  You can bet other manufacturers will simply attempt to copy the designs coming out of the BuK factory.  When I say copy I don't necessarily mean splashing the hull.  That's only happened twice, once in Euorpe and once in NorAm.  At least these shallow thinkers are always a year behind.  But this means that alll the R&D and deep thinking (and Euros spent) is done by BuK and then they end up competing with those who simply measure up and copy their boat.  Most of you probably don't know that BuK is the original designer for the IDBF International Standard Racing boat.  The IDBF provided a copy of an original teak HK boat.  Then the IDBF said, "that's our boat, we adopt it as our standard hull."  Back in 2001 it was a 12 bench boat.  When GWN brought the BuK to NorAm in 2000 we, along with BuK, designed the 10 bench interior (after all 20 / 2 = 10... duh).  I recall IDBF lecturing me at the dock in Philly on how we messed with "their" design.  Of course all the athletes loved racing in them and two years later the 10 bench IDBF (BuK/GWN) boat was the new standard.  In fact, some of you will recall we also introduced a new carbon shaft Grey Owl paddle in Philly that optimized surface area permitted by the IDBF specification 101 (but stayed within it).  Again it caused a minor uproar but a year later... imagine that!  The new IDBF paddle spec... looks just like the paddle Grey Owl intorduced in Philly.

There are 10 BuK's in B.C. at the moment with more coming in May/June.  But you'd need to deal with CanoeKayak BC if there is to be any hope of assembling them for Alcan.  If anyone wants a new BuK, let me know.  Mike K, GWN. 416-962-8899.

Its a hundai mentality out there, cheap wins. It beats safety out ever time, look at this weekend cant keep the buggers floating. The IDBF standard is a purchased piece of paper, not relating to the hull. It has no specs that a manufacturer needs to meet, simply fly the officials in from the federation and show them a good time, they approve the boat. See. If your theories are correct all boats should feel the same if they are certified. Why dont they?

On average, what do you think the time difference is between a 6/16 and a Gemini over a typical 500 m race in False Creek.

I think the 6/16s are about 2 seconds faster, on average.

I think if you raced 2:15 in a Gemini that would be about equivalant to 2:13 in a 6/16.

vast majority of times I've ever compared seem to be around the 5 second mark.  Maybe a bit lower, and high as the 10's but mostly the 5's

Rossifumi, I think you're right. I did a bit of analysis using Excel on the results from Alcan 2005 Rec A semis. There's lots of teams in Rec A with very close times so I thought that would be best. These races were back to back so tide and wind differences will be as small as possible.

Semi 1 (6/16) average time = 2:14.2
Semi 2 (Gem) average time = 2:17.9
Semi 3 (6/16) average time = 2:12.5

I'd say 6/16s are about 4 to 5 seconds faster on average.

Anyone else care to add their experience? Maybe some GPS users?

 It time for the the gemini rants to begin ...let me start

 I cannot believe how bad the Gemini's are and can't believe we even wasted the money to try to make them better and then actually make them somewhat worse
 
 The retro fit is a joke.The obvious problem is the the tubing along the sides ...You would have thought they would have mocked the first one up and then sat in it to test it out . They should have moved the tubing down a couple of inches and then mounted the seat above them .Yes I know the fibreglass where they cut it would have been in the way but you could have rounded out this area to run the piping through it .

 How many have noticed the vibration now in the boats ? and how you can feel it in the seats and how the sides now flex outward because we are all pushing against the stupid tubing trying to get comfortable the best we can .Its quite noticeable in the ft seats  The tubing also  forces you inward if you try to sit tight to the gunnel .And now what used to be somewhat even performance boats are completely uneven .I pitty those who get certain colour gemini's as there is a performance difference now between the boats .Thats right ...some of them are slower than others as we have found out through testing .

 We wasted so much money retro fitting these stupid boats :wall: .We all got used to the old gemini's and at least for the most part they were fairly even in performance .. Don't get me wrong here either...I appriciate they tried to fix what was a problem but I think paddlers should have had a some input into the retro-fit and that a mocked up model should have been shown to us and maybe even tried out before they went and did them all......I hope there is a warranty on this retro-fit

 All I have to say is they better be bringing in the BUK's for Alcan or it will be a joke .

 Feel free to rant away .......

Good to see you've got your excuse for losing all prepared there Paddleboy  :clap:

trailer in BUKs from elsewhere, or use the ones at FCRCC?  i'm sure two BUKs will go a long way in a heat of 8 boats.  i call a BUK for each heat for my team! :D  8)  i've been "lucky" enough to miss practices out of dragonzone for the last while, and can't honestly remember what its like to paddle in the retrofited Gems.  Come to think of it, i don't think i've had a single practice in them, so i'll shut my mouth now.   :silenced:   :lol:

on the topic of ranting though, i dislike the 6-16s AND the modified Gems, and wish someone rich would donate all lower mainland clubs a full fleeet of BUKs.  I think i'd rather paddle the moddified Gems than the few 6-16s that are in HORRID condition though.

Just a suggestion, instead of complaining about the condition of the boat why not pay the club you're practicing with a few extra hundred a year/team. Set up like a council of paddlers to over see that the money is spent the way the general paddler wants it to. Like getting now boats.....

But then again I'm barely able to pay the fees now so.........yeah maybe this option is not good for everyone, especially us students

 Yes they could do a BUK heat ,there are enough of them around now.Burnaby Lake has some,Delta has some and others as well . Its just a matter of getting them transported here and we have done it before .They could have left the gemini's alone and used the money to transport the BUK's and saved .

 Paddleboy rarely loses !!  lol, and I won't have any excuses. Just have to do the best we can with what we have at the time .

 Anway back to the rant ....Should have sold them and bitten the bullet and gotten BUK's .We made the mistake of buying them and now we made the mistake of retro-fitting them w/o input ...just like when we bought them no input .If we had tried them before we bought them we would never of bought them or at least the 11 seat version .And if we had just reto-fitted 1 and then tried it w/ a decent comp team and asked for their input the gemini may very well ended up with a nicer retro fit

 Ok I'm done... :silenced:

 

 

YES!
I HATE THAT! BAH!!!! :x

"And now what used to be somewhat even performance boats are completely uneven .I pitty those who get certain colour gemini's as there is a performance difference now between the boats .Thats right ...some of them are slower than others as we have found out through testing."  As stated by Paddleboy

I've paddled in a few of these retro-fitted gemini's and I'd like to know just which one's are slower, which colours and who got stuck with them today.  I don't have any issue's with the retro-fit and prefer them to the pre-retro-fit. 

Good racing and a thanks to Mother Nature for holding out on the showers.  Looks like last year all over again, can't wait for the out of towners to make their showing at Alcan.  It's now time for everyone to place their bets.

Not going to get into the old versus new debate here but just to clarify, the old Geminis were an 11 seat configuration originally so PB you must be talking about a different Gemini  :shock:.  Gotta keep your boats and seats straight before making comments.

I did talk to the people who ordered them and there was not a 10 seater at the time just an 11 seater and 12 seater available.  Now how you could fit 12 seats in a Gemini is beyond me.

So paddleboy, did you have a slow gemini or a fast one in the Alcan regatta final?
Must have been a fast one 'cause you beat DWW, no wait it was a slow one because Pacific Reach beat you!  :wink:

  lol....it was the old guys model ,lol but hold onto your paddles cause  paddleboy will be in a very fast one for Alcan ...:mrgreen:

Rumor has it you jumped boats for Alcan PB, true? Should change your name to Paddleslut if that is true  :lol: :lol: :lol:

 :oops:

 I can't help but spread myself around ,lol ...actually its unknown at this time where I will end up for the mixed but will definately be on the freight train for the mens  .........

Hey slutty Paddleboy you haven't answered my ???? Which colour gemini's has your team deemed slow?

 I can't tell you that !........sorry

Excuse me?  What's the big secret?  I'll just assume whatever boat you end up on it the slow boat because you'll use that as your excuse on why your team didn't win.  Oh wait... you don't actually have a team do you?  Paddlewhore!  Hopefully this year a certain team won't try to switch numbers on boats before a race because they want what they feel is the fast boat.  I know Alcan officials are watching for that this year. :naughty:

 msn(:'() . Nope I won't be useing any excuses .....

 For the record ....I do belong to a team thats heading to the worlds but I am also racing with another team thats going as well ....does that make sense  :think:

 Alcan really is not the goal of either team and its ...mmmm... lets say practice for what they really want to accomplish

If you really wished for changes, roll up your sleeves and organize a committee and fundraise to buy more Buks,  instead of bitching about it on the internet.  Personally I think the retros are fine.   I would have thought an excellent paddler of your caliber would be able to ignor these petty obstacles.  Heck I've never heard the Hamber juniors complain.

None of the boats on the creek are perfect, the wood 6 16s are water logged with cracked seats, the buks' bow wake is too big, and too sensitive, the millennium is unstable.

If you're having trouble sitting on the boat, your ass is too buff. :P

No offense, really.




Btw, does anyone know why the current Buks at FCRCC say canoekayak BC on them?  What happened to the original Buks with the buk logo?  Did Burnaby trade our precious Buks?

maybe their technique is different, and doesn't cause their hips/legs to mash into and against the rain throughout the entire stroke?  not being an ass (for once?), just pointing things out.  i know that i have a permanent bruise on both my hip and the outside of my knee on my outside leg ever since starting to paddle those things during practices.  they're not totally unbearable for a simple 500m race, but an entire practice, doing race piece after race piece, going 100% over and over again, my outside is raw and brown/purple.  in my case, its not a matter of my ass being too buff...  in fact i think a buffer ass would be better, cause my scrawny behind is sore as heck from my hips constantly rubbing against the rail/butt check sliding inwards as the rail makes my slide away from the gunnel.

from all the seats i've sat in in the BUKs (6 up through 2) for practices, i'd say those boats are as perfect as my non-boatmaking self could get them.  wake is too big?  lift your paddle higher out of the water.

quit dissing the millenium boats, the foot braces alone make those things the shiznat!

Damn, I guess you got stuck in the slow one again!

 I was in both fast ones and slow ones...lol .Actually as you can see my FCRCC team rocked !! and my Roli team did awesome as well .Roli posted some pretty fast times this weekend and thats a great thing to see as we head to the club crews .If Roli continues down this path I see good things happening in TO .

 The slow gemini for those that wanted to know was a blue w/ yellow pattern ( there are a few that colour) but 1 in paticular that is much slower then the rest .

 Guess which color Roli was in in the A final.....lol  ...oh well they still did very very well and we won't blame the boat as we are very satisfied with the result .For a senior team ( 40+) to stay with premier mixed teams and even turn faster times than some is awesome ....G0 Roli GO !!

Heard that they were retrofitting the Gemini's again... So I went down to DragonZone and sure enough.. looks like there's two of them sporting the new "renovations".

As you can see from the photos it looks like they've removed the bars now. I hope that they'll sand down the inside of the gunwales so that they're flush since those protrusions look like they could lead to some accidental scrapes and scratches.

(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_EXK4fdrUCS0/TCqiKE0XWII/AAAAAAAAAC4/nHJKMUtljew/s512/photo%201.JPG) (http://lh4.ggpht.com/_EXK4fdrUCS0/TCqiKItl9tI/AAAAAAAAAC8/slzGXImFDYI/s512/photo%202.JPG) (http://lh5.ggpht.com/_EXK4fdrUCS0/TCqiKLxGvMI/AAAAAAAAADA/sdZj092tvq0/s512/photo%203.JPG)

Any teams paddling out of DragonZone take one of these out yet and want to share how it felt?

I also consolidated all the previous discussions on the Gemini boats in this thread just so everyone can see what has been discussed before. Can't believe it's been 6 years since we were introduced to these things...

Greg & Friends have been doing an awesome job with these things. My team tried it out a couple of weeks ago. It gives the paddlers a bit more wiggle room for leg drive and rotation. The 1st seat is definitely more comfortable than before.

The middle seats (4-7) may bend if there are a couple heavier guys on it. This will tilt their hips toward the middle, possibly throwing off their linear movement. Nothing huge while paddling 80%, but it doesn't feel stiff during Power10s (thus being shock-absorbing so to speak... ) However, not every paddler feels the same way. In fact some people didn't even notice we were on a modified Gem.

Anyway, the general consensus is that the change is a good thing.

And wow, looking back on these messages from 2004...how everyone was excited to introduce these gems. :?

BuKs all day everyday!!!

Woohoo, no more bars! I always hated those things.

Amen!!

FCRCC will soon have their very own modified boat too!

No matter what you do to a Kia, it will never be a Ferrari.

Hmm, no more grey streaks running down our hips and thighs from the chainlink fence posts. :)

Should be interesting to see if there is any longitudinal twisting.  Presumably there was a valid reason for the bars being installed in the first place, other than to just p*** us off.

Also, no love for the Taiwanese boats?  I miss that festival, plus it was kinda fun to paddle in a race with a heavy team, wondering if you'd make it to the finish line before the boat filled up completely over the tops of the gunnels.

Having problems removing the out-dated poll in this thread so I've updated and reset it. Feel free in showing love to your favourite boat.